Real people expect certain things. I’m not one of them. My existence is to give real people what they want from me. I am so tired.
I have been in therapy since age 12 or 13. I’ve taken so many drugs in so many combinations I can’t remember it all. I’ve been to several therapists and I tried And tried.some people are just broken, I think.
yes, life and death are normal. It happens to everyone sooner or later. I will not try to talk you out of the path you have chosen because that would be something I could not do. Why you have chosen this path is a mystery to me. Like why are so many people so unhappy in this world. Do they desire something unattainable. Is there no joy in their life, no discovery, no new adventures to enjoy. Maybe it’s because they don’t like the part they play, not liking who they are? A will for self-destruction comes from dislike. If that is the reason why not just change who you are, what you have become. It isn’t that hard to do. No harder than taking the road less traveled, turning south instead of north. I think if people knew they were guided only by perception changing paths would be so simple.
I have read this debate (mainly Broomstick vs. the others) for a couple of days now, and I cannot help but comment because I have had suicidal ideation for a lot of my life. About 8 years ago I went so far as to work on a plastic carbon monoxide tent I could set up on my back proch. I did not go through with it but I still have the charcoal burner hidden under the proch where my spouse will not find it, and I still have the CO detector that I purchased at the time.
The main thing that stopped me (apart from my own cowardice) is knowing that it would hurt my life’s partner and probably my siblings, nephews, etc.
But this is the point at which I become resentlful, when I realize that love can be used as blackmail leverage to keep me from self-liberation.
And this is where I see a certain hypocritical double standard in the arguments of Broomstick.
When it comes to the suffering of the potential suicide, he or she is fed a series of pious bromides that their problems are temporary, that their suffering is all in their mind, that things will improve, that there are solutions, that their lives will get better, etc. etc.
In the first place, the person promising things will get better has no way of knowing that they will. They cannot feel the pain of the suicide. And who says that every problem has a solution? 50 years of psychologists, psychiatrists and various medications have never made a dent in the massive anxiety disorder that has ruined my life and almost certainly will do so until I die whether by self-liberation or natural death.
But what all these arguments amount to is that the suicide is castigated as selfish and essentially told to “get over it”.
But what about the family and friends of the suicide? They can go on whining and resenting for decades. Does anyone tell them to “get over it”? Does anyone tell them “The suicide made a decision, live with it and respect it. People die, whether from disease or accident or suicide. Grow up and learn to accept it.”
I think the “suicide is selfish” message is aimed, not at the person who commits suicide nor the survivors, but at everybody else.
A friend of my niece committed suicide. The family chose to have an open casket funeral (she laid down on the railroad tracks), and, when her high school wanted to leave an empty seat at the graduation and award her a diploma, they said No. Because they did not want anyone to mistake the suicide for a romantic gesture, or to think of it in any way except a horrifying tragedy.
I am sorry for the loss of anyone who has experienced the suicide of a loved one, and my post is not intended to criticize anyone for their reactions to it.
Regards,
Shodan
“Selfish” is a very relative term. As one wit on this board stated, selfishness consists of lack of proper concern for the selfishness of others.
When you get right down to it, insisting that someone must remain in a life that has become intolerable to them to keep YOU from feeling bad is about as selfish as you can get.
But let’s look at other scenarios. There are cases of men or women who decided late in life that they wanted to explore their spirituality by joining a cloistered order, or even some monastery in Asia. They in fact leave their loved ones (except maybe for a rare visit) much the same as a suicide does. But nobody calls them selfish.
Men and women who decide they are no longer happy in their marriage get a divorce and, if small children are involved, it is likely that the disruption of the family will severely traumatise them. And yet nobody calls them selfish, even though the pain of remaining in an unhappy marriage is probably less than the pain suffered by the average suicide.
I am glad that you shared this with us. I understand every word of it and you are not alone. I have heard what you say from many different people over the years. Would you be willing to walk a path less traveled?
I am 65 and have suffered from my anxiety disorder and depression for 50 years. I cannot remember a time when I felt that life was happy or enjoyable. It is not a question of my life getting better, because materially speaking I am comfortable, upper-middle class. But I suffer from anhedonia (look it up) so it really does not matter how much better my life gets.
So, you want to take a crack at what 50 years of shrinks and pills could not change with your “path less travelled” philsophy, be my guest.
We need to talk and I am sure here is not the place.
Need a contact link.
What are your qualifications?
I think we did this once before. I majored in psychology in college but was very disappointed with the course and quit. So I have no degress, but I do have experience and I charge nothing. I like to know about what causes your anxiety but it is not crucial. We start from square one. Nothing but words is used. I will ask you to look over some affirmations to see if you can do them on a daily basis. The challenge is to replace fear thoughts with positive thoughts. I would like to know about your feelings of spiritual things. Many people still retain fear thoughts of hell and punishment. If you don’t want to go into spiritual things we can still do the same thing without spiritual things.
We just need to talk about these things. I am 76 years old and at peace with myself and the world. If you don’t want to try this I will understand.
How do you measure suffering? Do you have a pain-o-meter? How do you prove that statement?
Ah, once again blaming the survivors, how awful they are for feeling pain and anger because of a hurt inflicted by someone else…
She suffered from mental illness for nearly twenty years, but there were times that, for lack of a better term, it went into remission. It was not 20 years of unrelenting hell, it was episodes of depression.
That’s why, when I point out the triggers were, indeed, temporary problems that would go away or could be fixed I say she killed herself for transient reasons. Yes, she did have trouble coping with major life stressors but she had suffered those before without killing herself.
That’s nothing more than a bullshit justification for the pain you cause others. Removing yourself will hurt others WORSE than if you tried to actually do something about your problems.
Calling someone selfish for saying that the suicide of a loved one caused them pain is pretty disgusting, too.
You should loan Steophan your pain-o-meter.
Love can also be used to inflict the worst sorts of pain, which is what a suicide does.
You can not kill yourself without hurting others.
You have no way of knowing they won’t get better.
As I’ve mentioned, for my sister the depression wasn’t constant, it was episodic. Since, in the past, those episodes had passed why is it unreasonable consider that they wouldn’t continue to come and go?
Dead people don’t feel pain.
There are a lot of people who tried to kill themselves, failed, and were later glad they didn’t.
There have also been instances were one suicide precipitated others, so the notion that the survivors don’t suffer, or don’t suffer comparably, doesn’t always hold true even by that measure.
Actually, no, I don’t tell them to “get over it”. I tell them to seek alternatives. I tell them to seek treatment.
Oh yeah, people sure do tell the survivors that. I’ve had a quarter century of hearing shit like that.
Not to mention the fun people who started calling my parents at 2 am accusing them of killing their daughter because, you know, they must have been horrible parents. Or they killed their daughter because they didn’t care enough. Or didn’t support her enough. Or didn’t do something to stop her.
Or did you somehow have the notion that people aren’t cruel to the survivors?
Why is it so horrible to question whether or not that “horrible life” can be fixed? Or, when you hear someone has cancer do you just tell them to go home and die rather than, say, talk to a doctor about possible treatment?
I do. I think it’s incredibly selfish to abandon your family to go live as a hermit, particularly in those communities supported by others. Oh, la-la-la I’m going to give up every adult responsibility to go hide in a pile of rock and talk to invisible unicorns all day. Yeah, selfish as hell.
bwuh? Seriously? Hell yes divorcing parents are called selfish. That’s why they’re told to stay together for the sake of the kids. Not that I agree with that sentiment when staying together will cause more harm than good.
You speak in a lot of absolutes. Is there no room for grey? I get that you’ve suffered from a suicide in the past, but it seems like you are convinced of one way of looking at things and don’t want to entertain the idea that other opinions (or, if you are more extreme than I pick up on: other realities) from what you went through.
For instance, would you consider a terminal illness as a good reason?
If no, why is life sacred above all else?
If yes, why do you think depression can’t be considered “terminal”? Is there a “line”?
I ask because you react vociferously about charges about your loss. I can accept that your assessment of the situation is fact as I have no knowledge of your situations and no reason to suspect that you are falsifying anything. I’m just wondering if this has cemented your views of the topic to a rigid “no” or if there is more nuance to your views on the subject of suicide in general.
You have no way of knowing that they will, but I guess you’re ok with gambling their life on it. I guess that makes sense, you’re not the one dealing with their shit.
Jesus. Maybe she didn’t want to face a lifetime of up and down.
There are also a lot of people who don’t succeed that lie about being happy they didn’t. They are also plenty of people who are sorry as hell that they failed and live a life of regret that they didn’t try again. Then they die a natural death to make everyone else happy, like you.
My grandmother sought treatment all
of her goddam life. None of it did her a damn bit of good. So whenever I hear people bleating on that all it takes is therapy or medication or what the fuck ever, I know that they have no fucking clue what their talking about. Just like not every cancer is cured, neither is every mental illness.
Your grown sister?? Yeah I’m not believing that. More supposed justification to fuel decades long anger.
Jesus Christ, I’ve been there too and the only thing else I have to say to you is get over yourself.
I’m out. I was hoping to find an interesting debate on this topic, but have no desire to get in a pissing pity party contest with just one person monopolizing the thread. Have at it and ream me a new one for daring to disagree with your woe is me perception. Just like you’ve done everyone else.
[quote=“Broomstick, post:73, topic:669466”]
Dead people don’t feel pain.
[QUOTE]
I realize you were saying this in a particular context, but ironically you have just put your finger on the nub of the whole debate.
Suicide simply becomes the best of a series of options or possibilities.
Here is an exercise that may help you understand. Arrange the following options in order of desirability.
A happy life in which you have love, a productive existence, a feeling of well-being and problems that are difficult but manageable.
A life in which your mind makes you so miserable that you hate to wake up every morning, and in which decades of well-intentioned trying by doctors and psychiatrists has done no good. And the prospect of continuing to suffer for several decades more until you die of natural causes.
Escape from pain and suffering (physical or mental) through self-administered death.
I think both of us would choose option 1) over the other two, correct? But what if decades of trying had convinced you that option 1) is not really attainable? Would you choose 2) or 3).
I will say this for your sister. She had the courage that I lack.
When you get right down to it, Broomstick, I am the one who honours and respects your sister, even though I never knew her. I realize she faced a difficult situation and I respect her right to make the choice she made.
She was obviously very unhappy and convinced it would never get better, and I would never be so arrogant as to decide for another person how bad their suffering is or whether or not they have reason to hope for an improvement. I respect her enough to assume that she analysed her options rationally before doing what she did.
I envy her courage in over-ruling her natural fear of death, courage which I do not posess.
Instead of respecting her choice, you come on here and bitch (as you apparently have done for the past quarter-century) about all the pain she caused YOU and your family. Does the fact that she found peace give you no comfort at all?
If we are talking about selfishness. . . . .
How do you know? I can fake happy and fine like you wouldn’t believe but it’s mostly bullshit. Depression, for me, does not “come and go”, it just gets worse and then sometimes slightly less bad. When it’s less bad, I can interact with people in what appears to be a totally normal way. I can smile and crack jokes and have dinners and make conversation. I was diagnosed with PTSD when I was 14 years old and have suffered depression and anxiety ever since and yet there are people I have known my entire adult life who have no idea that I’m depressed at all. They think my life is some beautiful, happy thing. When it’s less bad, I can feed into those perceptions pretty easily. When I was in nursing school I confided in one of my clinical partners that I was having a particularly bad time. She was dumbfounded that anything in my life could be bad. Prior to that, I heard a lot of “Wow, I wish I had [some aspect of my life she knew about], you’re so lucky!” from her. Complete surprise to learn that I wasn’t 24/7 daisies and sunshine. This is incredibly common behavior for depressed people. We fake it and we’re usually very, very good at it.
When it’s worse, I can’t fake it anymore. I stop answering my phone, I stop going out, I stop everything. It’s a lot of “sorry, I’ve been really busy” bullshit.
If you’re basing your opinion of the level of your sister’s suffering on her actions, you’re at least equally as likely to be wrong as not. If you’re basing it on what she told you, she was at least equally as likely to be full of shit as not. Unless you could read her mind and actually know how she was feeling, you’re GUESSING. Unfortunately, nobody in this thread can be right except you and the only person who could argue the point with any authority is dead, so it’s not like you’ll stop to consider any other position. And that’s fine, too. I’m just letting you know, the odds of you being entirely wrong about every single thing you’ve said in this thread are are potentially very high.
It’s not unreasonable to think that the episodes might go away again, but I think it takes more mental stability than most suicidal people have to see and trust this. Besides, you said in your first post that her note made it very clear that the triggers weren’t situations like your mom’s health or a job loss but a desire to cause pain to others. That’s not an episode so much as a chronic state.
And it’s wearing to live in that chronic state. I don’t have the terrifying, grinding agony of feeling like I just can’t keep myself safe, but even the passive ideation is tiring and tiresome. I’m truly sorry for your loss, though.
So there were multiple people who called multiple times in the middle of the night to accuse your parents of this? I can see one very distraught person calling with “why didn’t you do more?” But your post makes it sound as if it were several different people with an agenda to taunt your parents—is that accurate?