But sometimes we can. What almost drove me to suicide was the combo of a perfectionist father and a mother who hated my guts, both of them hellbent on presenting a united front to us kids. If I had jumped off that balcony, things would have gotten worse for my brothers and would never have had the chance to get better for me.
I think if someone is of sound mind and wants to end their life due to physical medical conditions then it should be considered okay. If someone wants to end their life who is not of sound mind then it should be questioned. However does that mean we treat people differently who have a condition that we can see and consider that more just than a person with mental health problems…?
If they have crippling depression, and the drugs just make it worse? Sure, they need to seek guidance, and try the drugs, etc- but if they then make the sad, sad choice… well, I am so sorry, but that is their right.
Life is not a gift, it’s an imposition. If someone wants to kill themselves, it’s up to society do decide to what extent we try to save a helpless animal dying. Should we be potentially causing greater suffering onto people out of some self-righteous belief that life is sacred or should be cherished? IMO if our medical community is unable to keep someone from wanting to kill themselves after so much time/treatment, then there should be a method for people to go about humanely ending their lives.
Sorry, I just don’t grok that attitude. From my view it’s completely the opposite - life is a gift.
If a child is born only to be abused to death before it’s 4th birthday, was that life a gift? Nope, it’s an imposition. Gifts aren’t suppose to torture you to the point you want to literally want to destroy them.
Edit: Life may be a gift to the person giving life, but not for the thing given life.
That vast majority of human beings are NOT tortured to death at all, much less before their 4th birthday.
Why is my viewpoint less valid than yours?
Because people are tortured, people’s lives are by all means terrible. Not just humans, animals as well. Are all those livestock live’s gifts or blessings from the farmers who’s only intention is to literally murder them to eat them? I don’t think thats a gift, someone who’s lived a good life who isn’t depressed or wants to kill themselves, sure they may think life is some great gift that should be cherished. But what about the people who’s lives aren’t so great? Is life a gift across the board, or is it a gift only to a select few? So long as there is people or creatures that want to die because thats the only way they see to change their life, then I can’t personally believe life is a gift. A life born with privileged and wealth, that wealth may be a gift but the life it’s self isn’t.
It’s not like I’ve got great privilege or wealth, but I enjoy being alive and want to continue being alive. Gee, I dunno - maybe I’m just a glass half full kind of person. Sure, I grieved for my spouse’s death, but I tend to think “we had 30 good years” rather than “oh god, oh god, he’s dead and I’m alone now.”
It comes down to us having fundamentally different views of the same world, doesn’t it? We’re all going to die in the end, but meanwhile, I like this thing called life even if at times it’s difficult or painful. You don’t seem to like being alive. I’m not entirely sure those two viewpoints can be reconciled.
The difference is, I can acknowledge that your viewpoint has validity to you. All you seem able to say is that I am wrong.
Again, most people are NOT tortured. That doesn’t make instances of genuine torture excusable, they aren’t, but you’re belittling actual torture if you’re implying most human lives are that agonized. You think one life that’s gone horribly wrong ruins it for all the lives gone right. I just don’t see the scales balancing in that way, particularly not when we have some ability to change things, to rights at least some of the wrongs, to make things better.
It doesn’t matter if you have a shit life and still love life. The point is there are people’s who’s lives are just suffering. Therefor life is not a gift, it may seem like a gift to you but certainly to others it’s not. Therefor it’s an imposition and not a gift. Further more I would argue the reason you think life is a gift, is actually just your own circumstances and perspective of them. The life it’s self is not a gift, the environment around it may be. Some genetic positives may be a gift, but life it’s self is not. It is by all means an imposition.
Personal question, with neither offense intended nor offense taken if you choose not to answer: What has kept you alive so far? What are the things that have kept you from ending your life?
Technically flora and fuana. The reason why I personally don’t kill myself despite believing life is an imposition and not a gift, is because I just want to see what happens next. I’m far more curious about the world than someone sitting in their room waiting to die. I think that’s probably the biggest difference for me and most people. For me suicide is like dropping a TV show or anime halfway through. I want to see the ending.
I wouldn’t call my life “shit”. It has had some shitty moments, but overall it’s not that bad.
While there are some people whose lives are “just suffering” I believe there are vastly more whose lives are NOT just suffering. Again, you’re focusing solely on the negative.
[quote[Therefor life is not a gift, it may seem like a gift to you but certainly to others it’s not. Therefor it’s an imposition and not a gift.[/quote]
From my viewpoint it is the suffering that is the imposition, not life.
I think these ontological debates about life—what is life really, is it a gift, is it an imposition—are taking us a bit off track when it comes to how we as a society deal with suicide.
ISTM that our approach to suicide should not be based on the abstract and ultimately undecideable issue of whether life is a “gift” (from whom?) or an “imposition” (by whom?). Rather, we should focus on the pragmatic aspect that the vast majority of people would rather stay alive than die, and that most people even among those who’ve considered or (unsuccessfully) attempted suicide were eventually glad that they stayed alive.
That, IMHO, is reason enough to justify a default position of discouraging or preventing people from killing themselves wherever possible, with exceptions for cases like the terminally ill.
That default may be somewhat unfair to the very small minority of people who sincerely, rationally and persistently would prefer killing themselves to staying alive. But it’s a burden we impose on them for the sake of helping the much larger group of people whose suicidal impulses are transitory. And it’s generally not an insurmountable obstacle if they’re really intent on committing suicide.
[quote=“Broomstick, post:74, topic:823613”]
I wouldn’t call my life “shit”. It has had some shitty moments, but overall it’s not that bad.
While there are some people whose lives are “just suffering” I believe there are vastly more whose lives are NOT just suffering. Again, you’re focusing solely on the negative.
Suffering is part of the environment or genetics or circumstances your life was placed into. The actual living part where you’re a living being isn’t a gift it’s an imposition on the material you’re made of. A gift in this context implies it’s an inherently positive thing given to you. Life isn’t inherently positive nor is it inherently bad. The fact life is imposed onto things is does not mean it’s bad. It’s your personal feeling that it’s a gift but I disagree. Life is imposed onto things, then their environment is either a gift or torture. The fact not everything perfect for everyone means life is inherently not a gift, but simply an imposition as I said.
Why do you define gifts as inherently positive? You can give bad things as well as good things.
You are given life. You could just as easily say you impose yourself on the world as the world imposes on you.
Anyhow - Kimstu has a point. The majority of people want to stay alive and making that assumption as the default is, in my opinion, preferable to the alternative.
Some people have asked me what I think about suicide. I always ask them “What’s going to happen tomorrow?”
The standard response is “I dunno.”
To which I say “For all I know, tomorrow could be the best day of my life. And if I kill myself, I’ll never know it.”
I also worry about things when they happen. All you have to do is live TODAY. When do I think about tomorrow? When it’s TODAY.
Yep. But you know what - I don’t think people are obligated to keep or value gifts they are given. Don’t like it, then get rid of it.
Not that I think life is a gift or an imposition. It’s just existence, a state of being, neither inherently good or bad.
A better way to define it is a gift is something that is accepted. Where as an imposition is something entirely imposed on, forced on.
That’s how YOU define “gift”. The universe isn’t all about you.
The truth is the universe imposes on us, and we impose on it.