Sulfur in our drinking water

Factual Questions
1

So it turns out that we have sulfur, iron, and iron bacteria in our well water. Not enough to make it unlivable, but enough for us to want to spend a couple grand to take care of it. We’ve had two estimates so far (I can post more details if needed), both of which recommend a chlorination/filtration system. The difference between them is that one uses a carbon filter, the other uses a ‘green sand’ filter.

In searching the net, I find lots of information, but almost all of it is from sites with agendas—i.e. selling one or the other system. From what I gather, green sand is more ‘forgiving’ if we forget to add chlorine one month, but comes with a higher possibility of contaminating the water supply (is that true? It seems hard to imagine such a product being marketable if a defect could poison the entire family). Are they both as good at removing the chlorine? Will either of them remove all the chlorine or will we be ingesting chlorine or its byproducts?

Thirstily yours,

Rhythm

2

First off how was the water tested? By a lab? On site?

Iron bacteria is not a health concern. It’s an issue because it produces sulfur smelling water. The first step in dealing with it is clorinating the water to kill it off. Has anyone done this so far? It would involve adding bleach to the well and running it through all the lines in the house. 90% of the time this alone will cure the sulfur problem. No need for further equipment.

How much iron is in the water? How much of it is ferick(red water iron) how much is feris(clear water iron. This important for detirmining which equipment would be used. Someone would have to have tested it at your home to give you an answer to this.

The manganese greensand will work depending on the amount of iron. They’d be clorinating the water then running it into the greensand to remove clorine and oxidizing the iron so it can be physicaly filtered (greensand works well as a phyisical filter) In order for it to keep doing that it has to be regenerated with potasium permanginate. Which is posionous to people. Its also great for turning things purple. It would be sucked into the greensand in sulution then back washed out. As a health concern it’s not high. A system could mafunction and get it into your water but it would be obvious if it was enough to be harmful. Don’t drink purple water.

I have to go I’ll be back later to finish this.

3

Having done a great deal of research on this issue, I feel comfortable in saying that there are few industries with more flim-flam men, quacks and outright charlatans than the water-purification industry–especially among Internet-based purveyors. The exaggeration and data manipulation/massaging are legendary, and the marketing is fear driven to the extreme. Even if you do ask for data to back up claims, the “evidence” is likely to be manipulated such that you will never know up from down.

NFL International (http://www.nsf.org/) is the authoritative source for impartial information of water filters. This is an even better link: http://www.nsf.org/Certified/DWTU/

4

I have sulfur water and a green sand filter. I never knew lie without the filter so I can’t say how the water will be w/o it.

I have gotten used to the sulfur so much that I don’t detect it at all, even if I try. But if I go on vacation for a week I will then smell it for the return day sometimes. When I go to an area which has chlorinated water I really smell and feel it (burning eyes), it takes longer to get used to it (3 days).

I don’t know how much sulfur I have, or how much the green sand removes. I do know that the filter is pretty easy maintenance, most is automatically done, I just have to top off a tank with some powder which turns everything purple every blue moon or so.

5

Your post leaves several major questions that require answering before being able to give an adequate reply. So here goes:

[ul]
[li]Do you have a lab analysis for your well water?[/li][li]If you don’t have an analysis, has someone at least identified the form of the contaminants? For example the most common form of sulfur in drinking water is hydrogen sulfide which also happens to make the water smell really bad (like rotten eggs). Hydrogen sulfide is noticeable down to the 50 part per billion range for most people. Sulfur can also be in the form of sulfate ion (SO4), in which case it is usually not a concern unless at really elevated levels.[/li][li]Another question would be whether or not the contaminants are present as dissolved or suspended? Is your water turbid or cloudy looking? Suspended matter can be removed by conventional filtration with no need for chemical conversion of any kind. If dissolved the contaminants you are discussing (sulfur and iron) usually require more drastic treatment methodologies.[/li][li]Despite the lack of any spelling ability by the previous guest, most groundwaters would contain ferrous iron (Fe+2). Most surface water sources have the ferric (Fe+3) form. which has a secondary drinking water standard of 0.3 mg/L. Iron is not a health hazard per se but it is definitely a nuisance since it will leave red rings in your toilet bowl and sinks/tubs. Generally speaking if you aren’t experiencing those problems it is not worth removing. [/li][/ul]
I, and I’m sure others, can provide more definitive responses once we have a better idea regarding the specific nature of the problem.

6

Also to very quickly address some previous comments regarding treatment. Permanganate with greensand is typically used to treat for Manganese removal as it is generally not as cost effective as chlorine for oxidizing iron prior to filtration. Chlorine also happens to be the most cost effective treatment for hydrogen sulfide as long as the H2S levels are below about 0.2-0.3 mg/L as you need to add about 8 times the theoretical amount of chlorine for H2S treatment to prevent elemental or poly sulfur formation which in either case can cause turbidity and further odor problems. You want the chlorine to oxidize the H2S to sulfate.

Have to run, but will be happy to provide more detail later.

7

Alright sorry for the interruption.

One of the problems with the greensand is it can become saturated with iron. It can not be used if the have a high level of iron. Generally based on the level of sulfur it will take it out sulfur without the need of chlorine. The only reason I’d use this type of unit would be if you had a very high pH and a moderate amount of iron. This unit would be four to six feet high and 8-14 inches in diameter with another tank about the size of a five gallon bucket for the potassium permanganate.
Maintenance is required every six months or so and involves adding some purple stuff to the little tank. If you forget to do this the sulfur and iron will return and you’d need to simply add potassium permanganate and run the unit through a few extra regenerations to get it back to normal again.

Cost based on the size of equipment needed 1000-2000 dollars installed. Cost for maintaining 25-100 dollars a year

Another option would be chlorinator then a carbon filter. A carbon filter alone will remove sulfur from water. Depending on the level of sulfur it’s generally beneficial to use chlorine to force the sulfur out, and then take the chlorine out with a carbon filter. A carbon filter can remove chlorine in multiples of hundreds from water what it could of sulfur. Carbon is far better at removing chlorine than greensand. You’re not likely to see any of your ‘chlorine byproducts’. I’d use a small inline chlorinator that uses chlorine pellets. and a carbon cartridge filter. Each would take less then 2 cubic feet of space and would be off the ground attached to your pipes.

Maintenance on the chlorinator would be needed every six months to a year. This would involve cleaning out any un-dissolved pellets and scraping out any sulfur build up and adding new pellets. I recommend this be done professionally as working with chlorine isn’t fun and a mistake in mixing non-compatible pellets can be explosive. Failing to do this on time will result in little noticeable effects as the carbon filter will remove the sulfur by itself though you’d be seeing much shorter life spans on the filters.

Cost for a chlorinator 150-300 dollars installed. Cost for maintaining 10 Dollars in pellets as needed plus labor if needed.

Maintenance on the cartridge filter is on an as needed basis or every 6 months. At the point where you start smelling chlorine or sulfur in the water you replace the filter. This is typically 2-3 months. This involves turning off a couple valves taking the old filter out and putting a new one in. If you fail to replace the filter you’ll continue to smell chlorine. Carbon filters are recommended to be changed at a minimum of every six months because they can become a breeding ground for bacteria. If you are using a chlorinator before it then that’s kind of a non issue.

Cost for a cartridge housing plus filter 70-200 dollars installed. Maintenance cost is the price of a filter 12-35 dollars.

Assuming most the iron is in the ionic state a water softener would be the solution. These are generally the best solution for iron problems. They are ion exchange units that exchange hardness (iron included) for sodium. They work to a limited degree as physical filters as well. Nice perk is the cut you soap usage down dramatically. Do to this they typically they pay for themselves in 4-5 years. A small amount of sodium will be added to the water well bellow what you could taste. If you drink 8 8 ounce glasses a day the amount of sodium added is about that of a slice of bread. If that is an issue you can use a potassium salt that instead adds potassium to the water this product cost twice as much as sodium salt. A water softener typically has two pieces the softener itself 4-6 ft high and 8-14 inches in diameter and a salt tank 3 feet high and 2 feet in diameter.

Maintenance required is periodically adding salt about 1 50lb bag every month the salt tank will hold 5 bags. It’s like a gas tank as long is there is something in it everything is good. When it runs out it will cause problems. So you have 5 months of forgetting before its an issue. If it does run out of salt iron staining will return. Extra regenerations will be needed to get things back on track.

Cost of a water softener is 1000-2000 dollars installed. Monthly maintenance is the cost of salt typically 5 bucks a 50lb bag.

I worked in the water treatment business for 10 years. There are a lot of less informed people in this business. It’s a specialized field that does not have a required educational background or a standard training program. Its very buyer bewares. I learned from a small family business that is hugely knowledgeable in the field. The person running the company is one of the highest members of the Water Quality Association. I’ve been out of this field for the past 5 years to pursue other interests.

www.wqa.org is excellent site for getting good imformation on this subject.

I hope you understood all that any questions I’ll be happy to give you answers to.

8

Thanks for the replies!

Here’s a little more detail on the estimates we received. Oh, and if it matters, the pre-sales home inspection (about three months ago) came back “not present” for total coliform and e.coli (whew).

We’ve had two people out to give us an estimate. They both did a quick in-home water test and gave us a simple report/estimate. The tests were about a week apart, and I was here for the second, Ladydvl was here for the first.

TEST RESULTS:

COMPANY #1:
Hardness: 1
Iron: Trace
Manganese: 0
PH: 7.7
Sulfur: .7
Turbidity: Clear
T.D.S. 203
Other: Iron Bacteria
Occupants: 2
Estimated
Water Usage: 200 Gal/PER
Comments: ¾” pipe, elec., drain

Recommendations:
Chlorination/dechlorination system includes: Solution tank, pump, retention tank, and carbon filter. Removes sulfur oders, iron, iron backteria, VOC’s, and provides ultra pure drinking water. Inludes 1 year parts and labor unconditional warranty.

Total: $2200
COMPANY #2:
Hardness: 1
Iron: 3 p.p.m.
PH: 9+
Hydrogen
Sulfide: 3-4 p.p.m.
Equipment Recommendation:
Chlorine injection, 2200 pump, 10 X 54 backwash filter (green sand), 35 gal solution tank.

Total: $1675

9

Oh, I forgot to add that (after :smack: ) moving in, people we’ve talked to in the area have noted that sulfurish water is something endemic to the area.

10

Well I’d throw the first company out the price is very high for the equipment mentioned. The iron is trace amounts yet you have iron bacteria(how did they do an onsite test for that?) and the other company shows 3ppm? Are you getting staining? orange/brown? With a hardness of one and the tds where its at I think the greensand is overkill there isn’t much in the water to take out. I’d go back to simply bleaching the well. It will cost less then $10 bucks and could solve the problem without any expensive equipment. If the sulfur smell comes back first try just a carbon filter and see how long each lasts if its weeks consider a chlorinator if its months I wouldn’t see any need for more stuff.

Both companies are recomending injection pumps. I recomend against those as they have a higher failure rate and cost considerably more then inline pellet canister.

11

Pardon me but WTF (who not what) are you dealing with here. If you can list the two sets of results above (plus your comment regarding coliform tests) without commenting on how screwed up they are, then you’re either pulling everyones chain here or you had best seek the advice of someone with knowledge in this area before you purchase or lease anything for your water supply.

In regards to the latter suggestion, discuss your water supply with your local county or regional water people and see if they will do an analysis for a reasonable fee or recommend a certified laboratory. If a local water service isn’t available then contact a local college, university or trade school for some help.

At a minimum I would have them give you pH, total hardness (ppm as CaCO3), calcium hardness (ppm as CaCO3), iron (ppm or ppb), manganese (ppm or ppb), total dissolved solids (ppm), alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3), hydrogen sulfide (ppm and requires collection in zero head space container), sulfate, and chloride. Talk to your neighbors regarding their water supply with emphasis on what depth their wells are at and what problems they have had. I have no idea what the regulations are in your state regarding well water supply but I would compare the results you get versus the regs as to acceptability of the water supply and see if you have recourse regarding bad water supply.

**FYI ** - If you don’t have a noticeable rotten egg odor then it’s doubtful that you have hydrogen sulfide problems and your sulfur may be present in the form of sulfate which, as I said before, is normally in all water supplies. If you haven’t noticed red rings on your plumbing fixtures then I would suspect that you may not have a iron problem. There are other parameters that could be problematic that you could have tested such as arsenic but I would do these only after you have talked with someone knowledgeable.

Then, if there are some real concerns regarding water quality, talk to some legitimate companies regarding treatment alternatives.

Regarding the analytical results presented:

Let’s start with #2 first - A pH (nitpick but it’s small p capitol H) in excess of 9 would be extremely unusual and make for some mighty interesting (and tasty) drinking water. If the sulfide were present at 3-4 ppm as hydrogen sulfide you all would be nearly choking to death on the fumes every time you turn the tap on. Iron at 3.0 ppm should be leaving every plumbing fixture in your home a rosy pink or bright red. In a nutshell - Throw the jerk out.

#1 - At least the numbers given are reasonable so perhaps he (or she) knows what they are doing regarding analyzing the water but the lack of defined units and or parameters tested for the measurements given is also somewhat suspect. I’m going to assume that the value of 1 quoted for hardness is grains per gallon which equals about 17 ppm which means that you’ve got really low hardness water that would be the envy of most people (not saying that it isn’t possible).

12

I don’t know what the initial cost is since the house came with it, but the anual maintance seems to be way high, or I’m missing somthing, I use about $5 worth of purple powder per year, unless you are adding the cost of the electricity for the regeneragion cycles, which run the well pump.

13

Not sure if I am really adding anything of any value here because of so many knowledgable posts but anyway--------here goes.

I used to to repair work as a tech on what was called “water treatment”. Water softeners for city folk was not half bad. But fixing water treatment equipment in the boonies was a serious pain in the ass. And mostly the customers fault. If you want trouble free city water you should live in the city.

As I recall (been 20 years since I did any of this) the suggested solution for a sulpher problem was a “chemical feed pump” -------fed chlorine at a certain rate and very adjustable. --------If the feed was adjusted properly and tested regularly and readjusted by the consumer as needed—what you had was “city water” with just a trace of residual chlorine. Could also add an activated charcoal filter after the chemical feed pump and the holding tank ----but not really necessary if the consumer kept up regularly with checking the residual chlorine.

Problem was city folks would try to live in the country with crappy water and not pay much attention to just about anything “barbaric”. We are talking “Green Acres” here folks.

14

After innumerable service calls on water treating equipment, almost always because of customer neglect---------You start to want to say–

Go back to the city, city boy.

15

It always amazed me to see thousands of dollars worth of water treating equipment so very nicely installed and in just the right sequence ---------sitting there--------cobwebs around.

Water treatment is considered HIGH MAINTENANCE. Certainly not "no maintenance’. You cannot just leave it alone. It will self destruct.

Do you realize how corrosive chlorine is? Tiniest little leak will destroy a piece of equipment costing $500------and lead to the wasting of other equipment down line costing $1000’s of dollars.

As said before--------if you are a city boy-------stay in the city.

16

I’ve had shitty water for 18 years. I was just asking around on the boards for help. We installed a $50 filter (in the wrong place on the line) :smack: . Then we had no pressure. Turns out, just by chance our pump crapped out. So we spent $1400 to replace that (and the pressure tank). The color of our water is vastly improved, as is the smell. We will re-install our little filter after the tank, and all should be fine. You might want to investigate those issues before investing in all the top drawer stuff. You may not need it.

17

I assumed the iron was supposed to be .3 parts per million. Above .3 is typically where you start seeing staining.

I also translated the hardness to 1 grain hardness which is very rare in untreated water but I have seen it. Tested it a half dozen times. searched the basement for a softener or something. Before accepting it, but I have seen it.

Kanicbird your correct. That maintenance cost was too high. I couldn’t remember the cost of the ‘purple stuff’ 25 bucks for a 5lb container didn’t seem unrealistic. Now that you mention it 5 bucks a container sounds more correct. So the maintenance would be 5-25 dollars a year.

Yep city folk just learn to take clean water for granted its not till your outside of a public water supply that you even need to think about these things. The cities do all the work to make your water clean and healthy. Maybe people should thank their public works department every once in a while rather than bitch that they had to shut off their water for maintenance.

I don’t think someone living in a rural area is expecting too much when wanting their water to be odor free clean and healthy. It’s not even hard to do it just takes someone to provide the right solution.

I’m not sure why water treatment equipment is considered high maintenance. It’s definitely not no maintenance I think of it as pretty low maintenance. Take a water softener it requires you add salt at least once every 5 months. How hard is that?
If you want to be good to it you could add some Rust Out, Rust Raze or Iron Out i.e. sodium hydrosulfate every year or so. A lot of the time they go 30 years or more with the home owner only knowing they need to add salt to the thingy in the basement. Is a oil furnace high maintenance. You need to make sure it has oil and every couple years have someone check it out. That’s about what’s needed for most equipment.

18

First let me shed some light on the topic of iron bacteria and iron in the water. If iron bacteria are present, as the OP suggests and several others have also agreed with, then the bacteria is an oxidizing bacteria that converts ferrous iron to ferric to form ferric hydroxide (a hydrated form to be precise) which is insoluble in water. This conversion does require the presence of some oxygen in the water which may not be present in most groundwater sources. Iron bacteria have nothing whatsoever to do with sulfur. The “brown slime” formed by iron bacteria can often be smelly as it is the combination of the insoluble ferric hydroxide, dead bacteria and any organic matter that may be in the water and partially oxygenated.

If you have sulfur bacteria, on the other hand, then thats a different “animal” - sulfur bacteria are reducing bacteria that convert sulfate ion to hydrogen sulfide and generally do it in under anoxic conditions, which are certainly more common in groundwater supplies. Sulfate is a contaminant in almost all water supplies (the secondary drinking water standard is 250 mg/L) and has no odor associated with it. The hydrogen sulfide, as I have already pointed out, has a very noticeable and offensive odor and, in addition, can be very harmful (corrosive) to metallic plumbing systems because of its ability to oxidize to sulfuric acid.

The combination of using potassium permanganate as an oxiding agent to convert ferrous iron and manganese to insoluble hydroxides and then a filter (greensand) to remove the solids formed has been used for a long time but it is not the most cost effective method for the above stated purpose. In fact, many municipal and industrial water treatment systems that use KMnO4 oxidize the iron first with chlorine (because it is a lot cheaper and also a very effective disinfectant) leaving the KMnO4 to oxidize the manganese to insoluble MnOH2. Both end products are insoluble and thus a filter is needed to remove them. FYI - The OP doesn’t address manganese as a contaminant (the secondary drinking water standard for manganese is 0.05 mg/L whereas for iron it is 0.3 mg/L).

19

Sorry for the 2nd post but I have a comment to make that is not intended to necessarily step on toes but nevertheless needs to be stated.

There are obviously several of you that have posted that are, or have been, in the business of selling, installing, and maintaining home water treatment systems. I am not trying to disparage any of you, but the fact of the matter is is that you need someone who knows and understands water chemistry to at least evaluate any water analysis performed (and frankly to determine the value of the testing if done under the recommendations of others) and make sound recommendations regarding what the problem is and what the alternatives are for achieving good water quality. Then someone like the OP can go out and get reasonable estimates from qualified suppliers to do the right job.

I respect and work with many people who have far more knowledge regarding the installation of this type of equipment. There is a place for both groups and they should work together.

End of lecture and just my two cents worth.

20

I like reading your post’s I never learned all the chemistry behind this stuff. Generaly I was the person installing not evaluating. I also ran a plant for batch regeneration of water softener exchange tanks. I’ve been out of the field for 6 years or so.

On smell do to bacteria from what your saying is caused by sulfur bacteria. ie rotten eggs smell not iron bacteria.

Another cause of sulfur smell in the water can be anode rods in the hot water heater. In this case it would be in hot water only. It’s easily solved by changing the anode rods to another material.

Methods used in public water supplies can be very different then those used for private wells. The volume of water and the frequency of testing give them much different answers to common problems. The fact they can have people full time changing over filters and such plays into it as well.

Potasium permaginate with greensand filters is deffinatly become obsolete for most needs. It still serves a purpose in very specific pruposes for a few rare homeowners.

As I mentioned earlier the person should check out the Water Quality Association to help them find a qualified supplier. www.wqa.org