Support Palestinian guerrillas.

Great Debates
61

Kimtsu: The article you talk linked too (titled “The Palestinian Community of Israeli Citizens”) talks about the nonviolent protest of Arab (Palestinian) Israeli’s, not the Palestinian’s who live on the West Bank/Gaza Strip. Outside of Israel (ie West Bank/Gaza and surrounding countries) violence is the norm as your article states:

While Palestinian nonviolence is the norm within Israel, advocates of that approach suffer more difficulties elsewhere. For the small Palestinian communities in the repressive oil-rich dictatorships Libya, Syria and Iraq and in the Syrian-dominated parts of Lebanon, the only way to carry out such politics is to emigrate. In these repressive countries, security services have organized extreme Palestinian groups, who use terror against Israel and assassinate Palestinian peace advocates.

While the article later goes on to document Palestinian attempts at peaceful process, these peaceful protests have been few and far between and overshadowed by violence from terrorist groups such as Hamas/Hezbollah/Al-Aqsa and so on…

62

urk… peceafull process = peaceful protest

63

Right, Skip, my point is that many on both sides (Palestinian and Israeli alike) are trying to suppress Palestinian nonviolent resistance—even though most people think it would work better than the current situation, and a number of Palestinians and Israelis alike keep trying to implement it. As evinced by the Israeli legal ban on organizing such resistance, and the intimidation from Palestinian terrorist groups, extremists are more afraid of the peaceful-minded people on their own side than of their official enemies.

Nobody’s trying to claim that peaceful responses haven’t been in the minority during the history of this conflict. We’re just pointing out that you were wrong to say that there has been “no chance at peaceful protest being even seemingly considered” right from “day one”. On the contrary, there is peaceful protest among Palestinians, and considering how many people on both sides have been trying to stomp on it and how thoroughly it’s been ignored in the mainstream media, I’m somewhat amazed that they’ve managed to produce even as much of it as they have.

64

Support the Palestinian People?..Yes.

Support the Palestinian Guerillas?..No.

65

Perhaps the problem is this:

Neither side wants peace.

66

Ancestral home?

Aren’t the Palestinians refugees?

I love rhetoric!

67

I may be mistaken, but, IIRC, Israel didn’t start this whole mess.

A whole bunch of Arabs did, in the late 40s/early 50s. Someting about rubbing the newlyfounded Jewish state (created by the U.N., if I’m not mistaken?) off of the face of the Earth?

Wait, didn’t the Arabs try again in in the 60s? Then again in the 70s? Large-scale direct attacks with massed armies? With tanks and jet fighters?

Gee, I don’t know.

Maybe I’m just a sock puppet for the western media, buying into the pro-zionist propoganda spawned by the infidel Jews… :rolleyes:

Then again, maybe the people and religion that launched three major wars of aggression against a recently devastated population attempting to create a country out of nothing in the middle of a desert should really, and I mean really, think very, very hard about that whole “God’s Chosen People” thing the Jews have going on.

I mean, consider: enslaved by the Romans, dispersed/displaced by force from their homelands, subjected to the kind of economic and cultural isolation that would obliterate lesser cultures, subjected to violent pogroms throught their scattered history, subjected to very real and fairly successfull attempts to exterminate them all permanently (if only in Europe), and then given a handfull of desert sand and told to make a home, a community and a country out of it.

Jesus-Wept-On-The Cross! If anybody could tell some neo-Highlander historical revisionist to quit whining about The Clearances and grow a spine, it’s the Israelis.

They may have had massive US military assistance in the last 50-60 years, but only to counterbalance the oil-rich, Soviet equipped genocidal Arab Muslims screaming “Jihad!” as they rolled the T-55s, T-62s and T-72s on Tel Aviv. I consider it tax dollars well spent.

Fuck the Palestinians. They shouldn’t have ran; they shouldn’t have agreed with abd fought alongside of the Egyptians, the Syrians, or any other rag-head who picked up an AK-47 to cleanse the Earth of the “Unclean Jew Infidel.”

They should’ve read their history instead, and made nice with their new neighbors.

Reap the whirlwind, Palestine. It’s the bitter harvest of the poisonous hatred you have sowed.

68

This was the only true statement in your post.

69

Huh. Never figured you for a racist ExTank - I always had rather more respect for you than that. I’m sure you couldn’t care less, but you’ve dropped a couple of notches in my estimation.

As it happens I don’t happen to agree with either your or Chumpsky’s black and white view of the events in that corner of the world, though you might be surprised just how much I do agree with in regards to certain specifics. But that’s neither here nor there. I get tired about arguing about those issues.

But “rag-head”? Why not just stick to “sand-nigger” next time? It’s scarcely less offensive or any more inappropriate in GD, IMHO.

  • Tamerlane
70

So, then, Chumpsky. Let me see if I understand your version of Israel’s actions:

Israel, one day and out-of-the-blue, just started aggressively expanding it’s borders, yes?

It looked upon Palestine and the Palestinians as just one of many speedbumps it was going to have to roll over on its way to world conquest? (If so, they should be reaching the shores of the USA in about 4,000 years.)

Also: These statements are false, either directly or by implication?

Hmmm…I seem to recall something in, oh, what was it? '47? '48? April 15, 1948? Does that ring a bell to anyone? Something about Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, a few others perhaps, launching a war the day after Israel officially came into existence?

Whassup, Chumpsky? Never heard of the Six Day War? The Yom Kippur War?

See Above.

Created by agreement of the U.N. Assembly 29 November, 1947.
Slightly over two years after the end of WW II. Where Adolph Hitler and the Nazi party planned and executed the slaughter of over 6,000,000 Jews, among others.

You’re seriously disputing this?

And this, too?!

Apparently, you’ve never met and talked with a Russian Jew…

Oh wait! Silly me. Just more Jew propoganda.

Again, answered above.

We can agree on this, yes? Or am I still mistaken? Or lying?

So whose tanks were the Israelis firing upon from the Golan Heights? Did Syria independently design and manufacture their own tank that, amazingly enough, was identical to the Soviet’s T-72?

Chumpsky: a more appropriate screen name could not have been devised for you by ten Dopers working together.

71

Sorry to offend your oh-so-delicate sensibilities, Tamerlane. If I had seen your post before I had responded to Chumpsky, I would have been all-too-happy to oblige you.

I am sick and tired of Arab apologists laying the blame for the current situation in the middle east on Israel’s doorstep. For God’s sake, the Jews just wanted a place to live where no one could stuff them into incinerators and gymnasium-sized gas chambers in job lots, but that’s not good enough for the freakin’ towel headed fucks.

They have to launch not one, not two, but three outright wars of agression against Israel, the first one the day after they were officially recognized by the United Nations.

Talk about your fucking brass balls! Why didn’t the Arabs just whip out their dicks and write “Fuck You!” on the side of the U.N. Headquarters in their own piss? And these same people have the nerve to accuse the United States of unilateralism?

And people around the world actually buy it?!

But NOOOOOOOOOO! That’s not good enough. After getting their asses handed to them not once, not twice, but three times in a row, and having been saved from the Israeli’s completely annihilating their armed forces by U.N. intervention, they have to start machinegunning and blowing up grocery shoppers and children’s school busses.

Could the Israeli’s have handled the situation better? Well, sure, in some absolute, perfect world that exists in think-tanks, the minds of news commentators, talk-show hosts and hindsight.

But I’ll be damned if anyone could figure out how to better handle being surrounded by hostile peoples armed to the teeth and determined to scrub your nation and people out of existence, at least in that little corner of the world.

I seriously doubt that there’s a people on this planet more sensitive to the horrors of genocide than the Israelis.

And yet: if the Israelis decided that the only way to have peace was to start stuffing Arabs into incinerators and gymnasium-sized gas chambers…well, I couldn’t (and wouldn’t) condone it.

But I certainly could appreciate and understand the motivation behind it.

So, Tamerlane, if I am less-than-PC where the Arabs/Muslims are concerned (that is, those advocating the destruction of Israel, Western Civilization and all non-Muslims in general), then boo-fucking-hoo.

I have no respect for religious fundamentalists of any type to begin with; those who resort to violence even less.

But I have a very special, dark place in my heart and soul for those who feel the need to export it beyond the borders of their own country in the name of God, Allah, Yahwey, Shiva, Buddha, Murphy, or the Great Pumpkin, by randomly attacking civillians.

“Evil White Man.”

Brother, they have no idea.

72

Just to pick one point out of your racist, ignorant screed:

Actually, Israel proper has never been attacked since 1948. On the other hand, Israel has launched several wars of aggression, including the Six Day War and its various adventures in Lebanon. Furthermore, the “rag heads” and “towel-headed fucks” did not leave their lands voluntarily in 1948, as is often claimed by Israeli apologists. Rather, they were kicked out in an extensive ethnic cleansing campaign in which some 700,000 Palestinians were kicked off of land that their ancestors had been living on for hundreds of years.

Also, it is kind of amusing to watch blatant racists appeal to the Nazi Holocaust as justification for the monstrous crimes committed against the Palestinians. Few things arouse more disgust than when people use a great tragedy to push their own highly oppressive political agendas.

73

Not offended, exactly. I’m not Arab, for one thing. Just surprised that you would use such a term in GD. Do you honestly think it is any more PC than somebody being surprised when someone starts railing about “niggers” committing crimes in some neighborhood?

I agree the PC movement can get out hand, but casual use of racial slurs is not acceptable IMO, even hardcore conservatives like Dinesh D’Souza seem to agree with that. Not that I am calling you a racist, necessarily. But you do give me cause to wonder if you feel no compunction slurring folks like that. I’m hoping you’re just worked up and aren’t in the habit of tossing around “Those damn towel-heads this…” and “Those stupid wetbacks that…” as a matter of course.

In what? I wasn’t looking for a fight. In truth, I’m not even looking for a debate ( though I suppose I might end up there ). Just wanted to express my opinion.

I don’t necessarily disagree with your sentiment. It’s your expresion of it that I think could use some work.

My problem is lumping all Arabs into they. You may have just disavowed such a generalization when you say…

…But the tenor of your post seems to me to be accusatory towards all Arabs ( i.e. the Palestinians deserve what they get, because they lost - even though quite a few of them never bombed anyone, nor had a say in any of this ).

I couldn’t agree more. Though I’ll note that all three ( but especially the last two ) of those wars were launched by secular nationalists, not religious fundamentalists ( said fundamentalists actually despised those folks and eventually managed to assassinate one of them, Anwar Sadat ).

  • Tamerlane
74

I’ve discussed this with you before, but it is really not that clear-cut. I am simply not in the mood to do this yet again in the umpteenth thread, but you are seriously splitting hairs and being disingenuous in your claims that “Israel has never been attacked since 1948” or that “Six-Day War was a war of aggression”. Even Lebanon is equivocal ( though in truth you have a stronger case there ). Nor is anybody exactly clear on who is responsible for most of the Arab clearances in Israel. Some of it was undoubtedly voluntary, some was not.

  • Tamerlane
75

ExTank, basically your post is correct but you leave out some facts that would confuse your clean cut view.

Beginning with the Romans, they occupied Judea, the Hebrews then started terrorist attacks. Does the word zealot ring a bell? This grew into a full rebellion, which got defeated.
Fuck the Hebrews that left, they should have stayed and fought to the death, right?
Btw, wouldn’t the Palestinians be the descendants of those who stayed?

As to the early beginnings.
After WWII the new state wasn’t created in an empty desert, as you suggest. People were living there. Oh and you conveniently start with the creation of the state. Let’s just forget about the Irgun and their terrorist attacks, like the blowing up of the King David Hotel. Reap the whirlwind Israel.

Not so clear cut, I’m afraid.

76

Chumpsky: Actually, Israel proper has never been attacked since 1948. On the other hand, Israel has launched several wars of aggression, including the Six Day War and its various adventures in Lebanon.
Eh? Perhaps you missed the massive Arab troop buildup on the Israeli border in 1967 or missed these words uttered by Nasser before the 1967 war

Or how about these said by Syria’s Minister of Defence at the time:

The bolding is mine. Added to this Egypt closing the Straits of Tiran on May 22. So we have a massive troop buildup, basically a call for war by the Arab states and a blockade of Israel’s oil supply. And yet these aren’t somehow warlike acts? When Iraq joined the coalition and sent it’s troops to the borders, Iraqi President Abdur Rahman Aref had this to say

Gotta love that peace talk…

And to somehow classify the 1973 Yom Kippur suprise attack as somehow really not an attack on Israel is borderline delusional.

77

Ex Tank

IIRC, the newly-formed State of Israel was armed by the Czechs, with Uncle Joe’s blessing. “Massive US military assistance” only began during Nixon’s tenure, after the 1967 war.

78

AMEN BROTHER ExTank!!!

Tamerlane I really respect your knowlege and views on the Israel/palestine issue but let me hopefully explain something. Now I don’t want to put words into ExTank’s mouth but I have stayed away from the I/p threads for some time because even though you and I could go on for literally days debating the finer points of what happened when and our opinions of how it effected future events when someone as obviously ignorant as Chumpsky comes along and starts spewing his crap it really gets old. Add to that our dearly departed **Collunsbury ** and maybe you will get an idea of why I have stayed away from these threads lately.

ExTank I agree with every single word you said and personally would have said it probably exactly the same way but for the love of G_d please don’t follow down the road of Collunsbury the dark side and banishiment that path leads.

79

So you believe the Germans, the British and the US were acting like terrorists during WWII?

Myself I can understand what leads to terrorism. People who have been marginalized in their opinion are dangerous animals. Look at terrorists from around the world and behind them all will be some form of oppression. People will do horrible things when they are angry. I see a lot of bullshit here about how can anyone support terrorism? Most of the time nobody is supporting anything just trying to put the terrorists POV forward.

Terrorism is real, hatred is real. Terrorists reasons for fighting are real(These reason may be bullshit from your POV but that doesn’t change the fact that the terrorist is willing to die for these reasons). My basic point is that if you just turn your back on terrorist and dismiss their grievances by default then it will never end.

Beyond this I don’t really want to get into it here as there are far too many polorised views for any worthwhile debate.

80

yojimbo: as ever, the Voice of Reason.

Tamerlane pretty much nailed it; Chumpsky just really pushed my buttons, and hard.

I have nothing racially against people of any ethnic makeup; I also generally have nothing against people based upon their religion (I kind of draw the line against things like the Thugee Murder Cult). I personally hold few, if any, strong religious beliefs.

I will denounce violent Christian Fundamentalists in the same breath that I will denounce Islamic (or even Jewish) militant fundamentalists.

Latro: the ancient Hebrews may have committed terrorist attacks against their Roman “occupiers,” but they did so with muscle powered weapons; knives, swords, spears, and bows.

For their troubles, the Romans rounded them up and expelled them. Every last one that they could identify, round up and transport. Given the nature of the Roman Empire, I’m really surprised that they didn’t just kill them all. But for the same reasons, committing genocide with muscle powered weaponry is a tiresome, time consuming endeavor.

You can hardly compare the “uprising” or “revolt” of an agrarian-based, muscle-powered Hebrew society against Roman soldiers 2,000 years ago to the industrial-based and armed attacks (with machineguns and bombs) against Israeli civillians in the modern age.

You also conveniently overlook the fact that the King David Hotel was the Headquarters of the British Military Command in Palestine, and that they had been warned, in advance, of the explosives, and refused to acknowledge the threat in classic Anglo-Saxon myopia.

If Tamerlane submits that X quantity of Palestinians left voluntarily and Y number were forcibly expelled by the Israelis, fine. I’ll not argue the point. My sympathies are with the Ys, and my condemnation upon the Israelis who concieved, executed, and condoned such forcible relocations.

But I 'd like to see some credible numbers (not claims from former belligerents holding Palestinian refugees in their"camps" for political purposes).

In any case, any human being with a shred of conscience who knows firsthand of terrorists and their activities and fails to report it somehow is tacitly complicit to the acts those terrorists commit.

bizzwire: by “Uncle Joe,” are you are referring to Iosef Stalin? I had always been under the impression that Israel’s early military equipment was mainly of British and Belgium design and manufacture.