The Intefada has failed, its time to surrender

According to Aljazeera (bottom of article), since the start of the second Palestinian intifada (uprising), “2988 Palestinians and 905 Israelis have been killed.”

For this debate, I make the assumption that Israelis want peace and security, and do not want the utter annihilation of the Palestinians, nor do they aspire for world domination. If you do not agree with this, please start your own debate or take it to the pit.

The uprising can best be characterized by continuous acts of terrorism (or rebellion) by a variety of Palestinian groups. Each of these acts is in term retaliated by Israel.

I contend that the Intifada has made life worse for the people of Palestine. My reasoning for this is as follows: [ul]
Attacks on civilians inside of Israel led to check points. I continually hear sob stories of how disruptive these check points are to the every day lives of Palestinians. Employment, hospitals, and schools are often on the other side of a checkpoint and thus have to be crossed.

Attacks on checkpoints cause them to have increased security, or be closed. When they’re closed many families are divided, and then access to vital services are lost.

The attacks are planned and staged from inside the various refugee camps. Thus retaliation for attacks require military action inside the refugee camps leading to civilian death and infrastructure damage.

Resisting the military retaliation inside the refugee camps further increases the severity of the military operation, which in tern leads to civilian death and area damage.
[/ul]
The worst example for this was a new report showing how hard life is for Palestinians, focussing on the new wall Israel is building. One Palestinian after another recounted a horror story of trying to pass through a check point. One man went on and on about how his wife was pregnant and they wouldn’t let them pass to get to the hospital on the other side. All you could take from this story was hatred for the brutal tactics of the Occupying Israeli forces.

The next day there was an attack on a checkpoint. This attack came in the form of a woman. The woman pretended to be pregnant, screamed and cursed to be let through to get to the hospital. She then collapsed and cried for help. When approached by Israeli forces she detonated several pounds of explosives killing herself and the soldiers.

This situation had two effects: It obviously closed that checkpoint for a couple of days, again trapping Palestinians on one side or the other. But more significantly, it meant that for that point on “pregnant women had to be treated as potential bombs.”

So for debate: tell me why the various militant organizations shouldn’t surrender completely and why

Because they want the Israely occupyer to get out of their land and the right to return to it for those who were chased or had to go on the run for Israely agression?
Is that enough reason why for you?
If you think they “should surrender” = let Israel take everything in addition of what they already have stolen which was in addition of what the UN has stolen to give to the Zionists… Can you give me one reason why you think that “surrender” to the Israeli agressor is even an option in the eyes of Palestinians?
Salaam. A

Aldebaran, I think the point of the OP was that terrorism is not working. You can’t really deny that, can you? What has terrorism accomplished for the Palestinian people? So far, it’s achieved nothing except to kill a great many innocent people.

The problem here is that the aims of the two sides are not equivalent. Israel wants a safe country to call their own; they don’t want to exterminate the Arabic people. The Arabic side, howeverm doesn’t have as clear an aim. While they want their own safe country, a great many Palestinians want Israel exterminated. Other Arabic countries want the Palestinians to remain a stateless people in order to use them for their own purposes; after all, you didn’t see them granting the Palestinians a homeland when THEY occupied the West Bank. Those Palestinians that would like an equitable peace seem to be drowned out by those who are intent on driving the Jews into the sea.

I’m not suggesting Israel is blameless in the whole affair, but I’m honestly curious as to what YOU think they should do. What reasonable course of action could they take? If they withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza, you know just as well as I do that terrorism will continue unabated and will likely increase, just as Hezbollah didn’t slow down a bit after Israel left Lebanon. How can they accomodate people like Hamas, who don’t WANT peace with Jews, and who brag about shooting women and children? I can’t think of any way to accomodate people whose aim is to murder my family, can you? If you have a solution - a REAL solution, one that works for both Israelis and Palestinians, not “Everything will be better if only we killed all the Jews” - let’s hear it.

Actually, peace in some form or another is very acceptable to many Palistinians. Not to others in the ME or their sympathizers, who appear quite willing to “fight to the last Palistinian”.

No, I’m sorry but its not.

Your reply highlights the difference in our view of Israel’s goals. I interperet from your post that you believe: …if the Palestinians surrendered and stopped fighting the Israelis would take over their land and enslave their people."

There are two problems with that. First, what makes you think the current resistance is stopping the Israelis from doing anything they want? Secondly, how is the fighting achieving the Palestinian’s goals?

This debate focuses entirely on those two points. I don’t see the Israeli goal as domination, but rather excistance. Secondly, the fighting has made life for Palestinians worse not better. I believe that continuing to fight will only make their horrible lives worse. Hence, if the Palestinian militants were to surrender, Israel would stop agressive military action, and life for the Palestinians could improve.

I just realized the bottom of my OP got cut off, the last paragraph should read:

So for debate: tell me why the various militant organizations shouldn’t surrender completely and why continuing the Intifada will make life better for Palestinians.

How do I get a mod to fix that?

I think the key issue here is that the Palestinian Authority (and groups like Hamas) are not operating with the best interests of the Palestinian people in mind. Their argument would be that short-term losses are acceptable to achieve a long-term goal. Clearly this rationalization is fooling the Palestinians, as they continue to support Arafat. A truly rational, responsible government would question:
a) is the long term goal feasible?
b) Is it really worth the cost?

Hamas Online? HAMAS ONLINE?

That’s one hellava resume, dontchathink?

-LC

  1. You can e-mail Buckner or Gaudere.

  2. Or you can “not worry about it”. The debate’s progressing fine as it is, your point is lucid, we’re all grownups who can read two separate paragraphs and process them as “these two thoughts go together” without having our brains explode.
    :smiley:

I think that after oceans more blood are spilt, innocents on both sides slaughtered, and mountains of treasure dumped into the sea, that the Palestinians will come to the OPs conclusion…there simple is nothing to be gained by continued terrorist and much to be lost. Israel is here to stay. The continued terrorist attackes agaist it aren’t going to suddenly make the country fold. The other nations in the region, as well as the Palestinians would be wise to finally come to that conclusion and try and live with it.

If the Palestinians would cease killing bus loads of civilians and instead take up peaceful means Europe would probably fall over themselves in their cries of joy. If, after a reasonable time, the terror attacks against Israel stopped (as well as the militant retoric) I think the Palestinians would find that their voices WOULD be heard…and at least some of their grievances righted or at least addressed. However, they are NEVER going to get it all back, nor are they going to even get a fair hearing from the world when we are constantly hearing about some man or woman who strapped a bomb to themselves and blew up another bus or shopping mall full of innocent civilians.

The dream of throwing Israel into the sea and recapturing something that never really existed as a soveriegn state anyway is history…its not going to happen. Just like the plains indians in the US are never going to get back all their traditional territories, neither are the Palestinians going to get it all back. They need to learn to live with reality…they need to learn to live with Israel.

Maybe 20 years or so from now we’ll see a similar process as what happened in Ireland happen in Palestine. Unfortunately it will be 20 more years of slaughter and death…for no reason at all, to come to the conclusion they SHOULD have reached 20 years ago, that Israel is here to stay and the best thing they could do for themselves is to work with Israel and the world for a peaceful solution, not one drenched in blood.

Yes, they should turn in their weapons or at least stop the terror attacks and try and find a peaceful solution. They should take a page from the book of Ireland and try and put the fighting aside and move on…break the cycle. The terror attacks will NEVER make life better for the Palestinians.

-XT

I think the Palestinians would serve themselves far better if they used the methods of Gandhi and MLK than using terrorism.

Agreed. It worked well for both of them. It would work for the Palestinians too IMO.

-XT

Well, that’s just it. There are various militant organizations. Nobody has the authority to “surrender” on behalf of the Palesitinian people, because no one leader or organization speaks for all of them. Therefore, violent resistance to Israeli rule will continue so long as anybody in the Territories is bitterly dissatisfied with it. It would be different if the Israelis allowed the Palestinian Authority to develop into a real, effectively sovereign government – but they won’t.

emacknight, you must recognise that the idea of ‘surrender’ is highly offensive to Palestinians and Arabs and will therefore jinx this whole thread. Why don’t we talk about peace and negotiations?

Even so, like BrainGlutton said, there is noone who can negotiate on behalf of the Palestinian people. Arafat and the Palestinian Authority have lost a great deal of their credibility since the Oslo process went sour, even if Sharon et al could be convinced to deal with them.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad have more credibility among Palestinians, especially in the Gaza strip, if only because they keep “struggling” against the Israelis, and it’ll be a cold day in hell before Sharon does a deal with Hamas.

I just can’t see how we get from the current situation to any form of peace - there’s noone to negotiate and no way to begin negotiations.

If we all seem to agree that there is no one to negotiate. And that surrendering isn’t an option, does anyone have a solution?

At what point can we say that “negotiations” have failed, peace by current means isn’t going to happen, its time for more drastic actions?

The OP could just as well be turned on its head: Is it worthwhile for Israel to endure all the pain, suffering and turmoil in order to support a few thousand settlers in the occupied territories? Has it brought Israel greater security or led to defensible borders?

The whoe situation is a clusterfuck for all parties involved, and the best thing Israel could do IMHO is to dismantle the settlements, return to the original UN boundaries, build a humongous wall around themselves, and wait for the Palestinians (and their Arab puppetmasters) to get their shit together.

It would be Arafat’s worst nightmare: He gets exactly what he claims to want- Israel out of the Occupied territories- at the cost of a convenient enemy with which to distract the populace from the dismal failure of his government. He will have to finally fish or cut bait, and if the attacks continue (as they doubtless will), they will be seen for what they are; naked acts of agression as opposed to the “deperate actions of a people with no other options” so vogueish in some quarters.

Well, most of those involved already have! The Israeli government is talking in terms of non-negotiated, unilateral actions and has been doing this to some extent. And of course, “the negotiations have failed, only drastic action will work” has been the opinion of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and most secular Palestinian groups not controlled by the PLO / PA since at least the beginning of the current intifada, or even since the Oslo process itself.

[hijack]

And did anyone else notice that we had sequential posts from Bald Taco and Linear Crack?

Do I sense a theme here?

[/hijack]

Two assumptions this makes. One is that if Israel totally abandoned the occupided territories completely, that the terror attacks would stop completely. This might be a decent assumption, but not one I’d bet any real money on…after all, where do you draw the line on ‘occupied’.

The other assumption is that Israel is holding on to all of the occupied territories simply because of a few thousand settlers. Certainly those settlers factor in to SOME of the territory, but the military value of some of that land for defense can’t be totally waved aside, so I think this is a bad assumption. There are myriad reasons that Israel is holding on to that territor, and some real benifits to them as a nation FOR holding on to some of them. Whereas, IMO at least, there is no benifit to the Palestinians of continueing the terror attacks, and some very real drawbacks…namely as long as they act like animals their very real issues will never be seriously addressed, and Israel will continue to run roughshod over them with virtual impunity.

However, if they DID stop the violence and turned to non-violent ways, it would be like the British in India after WWII…or the blacks in the South in the 60’s. People would see them resisting non-violently and would sympathize with them…and would be totally outraged at Israel and demand change. Read that as AMERICAN’S would be outraged and demand change. Europe has kind of lots a lot of its credibility on this issue IMHO.

-XT

I also think it would work and work very quickly. If the Israelis saw that the Palestinians did not want to kill them, there would be peace overnight.