Which actually makes them Judaizers, after a fashion, the first Christian heresy to be denounced in the first Ecumenical Council in Jerusalem. Funny how many of the heresies of the past now have their own Protestant denominations.
I’m not Jewish myself, but I have several friends who are. All of them are non-practicing, all fall somewhere between agnostic and athiest philosophically, and all of them would be greatly offended if anyone suggested they weren’t really Jewish.
Also, can anyone explain the meaning of the thread title? Hopeless geek that I am, I thought it was a Hobbit reference, and was Ben’s sly way of calling Svt4him a troll. Apparently, it’s actually something Biblical?
I’m thinking maybe it’s about Peter denying Jesus before the cock had crowed three times?
We were, in fact, directed not to do that, which is why I qualified my post:
Perhaps I should have more carefully emphasized that it was the response I imagine he’ll give.
I think he’ll hedge his response basically like “well here’s what we’ve done like I told you we used to do it, and I’m not going to answer the question specifically.” He has a way of not answering questions all the way and “in return”, telling a story that tries to lose the reader in the story he’s telling. After about the first time one becomes wary of it and cuts through Svt4Him Story4You Time to find that he hasn’t answered the question. To be fair, he does eventually answer about half of the questions directed at him.
He may well not answer, but it won’t be because of any lack in him posting in the Pit. He’s done plenty of that. IIRC he is out somewhere without internet access.
Now the question about the reference in the OP title. A very clever one IMO, and one which is actually a double-entendre, though not in the typical sense. To wit:
Emphasis, quite obviously, mine:D So not only has Svt4Him denied to admit his true beliefs (at least three times) on this issue, my guess is that Ben figured he would (takes reading all of 3 posts of Svt4Him’s to figure out his evasive and lying style) so deny, but gave him a chance to do the “right” thing instead of posting “Now I know you won’t admit this, but…”
So what’s the LOTR reference?
Anyway, it wasn’t Biblical. I was making a reference to the Mushroom Planet books.
:d&r:
In the Hobbit, trolls turn to stone when exposed to daylight. Now that I think about it, it’s a pretty tenuous connection. Well, I said I was hopeless…
Yeah, Ben, but mine insulted him more:p
whiterabbit, please don’t yell at me. I am neither Jewish nor Christian. Am I allowed to ask a Messianic Jew about your point or only an Orthodox Jew? I acknowledged that their stance is debateable. My point is that I think it is not insincere, a “front.”
tom, where do you get your information regarding Moishe Rosen? I have met Rosen and heard him speak and the man was not born a Gentile nor a Baptist. He may have become a Christian, but he does not “pretend” to be a Jew, he simply refuses to “lose his [ethnic] Jewishness” because he “is not practicing or observing [religious] Judaism.”
Diogenes, what about other religious persuasions? Can you be a Jewish Scientologist? Does an ethnic Jew who is an atheist also become a Gentile? (And can you provide some cites?) I can understand that Jesus and religious Judaism are incompatible. Therefore, it seems to me that by calling the organization “Jews for Jesus”, it’s pretty clear which definition of “Jewish” is being used and it isn’t the religious one. I think I’m with Polycarp on this one. I have to respect a person’s right to maintain both their ethinic identity and their heartfelt spiritual beliefs and refrain from calling them psuedo-or-phony-anything just because they don’t fit into the boxes the rest of the us would like to make for them.
Perhaps sympathy, instead of scorn, is appropriate with regards to Svt4Him.
I can relate to him or her. I was raised to believe pretty much the same way. It is a very difficult thing to come to realization that either
a) your belief system is wrong
or
b) God is a flaming vindicitive asshole, with character traits one would scorn if demonstrated by lowly humans
I ask that people consider that Svt4Him is as much a victim of this belief system as anything else, and perhaps hounding and insulting is not the way to demonstrate this to him.
I was leaving the whole ethnic argument out of it. The Messianics claim to be religiously Jews. They call themselves “completed Jews.” They take Jewish religious ceremonies and reinterpret them in a Christian light, while still calling them Jewish. They coopt the outside of another religion to further their own. How can this be seen as an ethical thing to do?
Of COURSE somebody can retain Jewish culture and customs and be RELIGIOUSLY Christian, or Buddhist, or Hindu, or what have you.
One can be a Jew and be an atheist. One cannot be a Christian AND be a PRACTICING Jew at the same time. THAT is what I meant.
I know I’m yelling a lot. (And hijacking this thread in a major way. Never meant to!) I’m sure most Messianics are sincere about it, but they may not realize what’s going on. I’m sure the leadership does. As for asking an Orthodox Jew, hell, ask a REFORM Jew. They don’t like the Messianics any more than the Orthodox.
I try to be tolerant, but this is one of those things that set me off.
since no one else has asked, I must…
“Polycarp, what’s this sugar on his porridge stuff?”
I might actually work that into daily conversation if I had any idea what it meant.
Sorry. Rosen was not “born” Baptist (nor did I say he was, but my statement was not clear). He was raised in a non-observing, culturally Jewish home. He converted to the Baptists in 1953 (at age 21), attended Baptist college, (I can find no information indicating that he ever entered a yeshiva), and was ordained a minister in 1957. In the mid-1960s, he began various outreach programs to proselytize Jews, culiminating in 1973 with Jews for Jesus. His funding and support were from Christians and his early fellow workers were all Christians, born and raised (e.g., John A. MacDonald).
The information is stuff I have picked up on the web, from time to time. Some of it is from attacks on him, that I take with a grain of salt, and some of it is from Baptist sites speaking of his “mission” in glowing terms. Rosen’s home page
It is the standard example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Ah, Friar Ted! It was a subtle allusion to a classic catchphrase that makes regular appearances in our religious arguments.
Briefly retold, MacTavish is holding forth on the customs of his compatriots. Among them, he notes, is their avoidance of the barbaric English custom of spooning sugar over the top of their bowls of porridge.
One of his listeners interrupts to point out that MacDougal always eats his porridge with sugar.
“Yes,” says MacTavish, “but that proves my point. No true Scotsman would eat sugar on his porridge!”
Neither zev nor I, nor whiterabbit, IMHO, has any business deciding how sincere the “Jewishness” or “Christianity” practiced by people who honestly consider themselves as “Messianic Jews” is, or how they resolve the doctrinal differences between the two faiths in their own mind. That is their business, and what they claim themselves to be, if no fraud is involved, I accept as what they consider themselves to be. It differs in no way in my mind from the universal statement of gay people that they did not choose to be gay and cannot by act of will stop being gay – whatever your opinion or mine may be is of no account; their own witness of what they think and feel is what counts.
Friar,
'Sugar on the porridge" is an allusion to the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.
The analogy is that Angus claims that no Scotsman would put sugar on his porridge. Another person counters that he knows a Scotsman who puts sugar on his porridge all the time. Angus then says “Ah, but not true Scotsman would put sugar on his porridge.”
It’s often applied to arguments over religious definitions…i.e. no true Christian…" etc.
Sparrow,
Here is the definition of “gentile” from the American Heritage Dictionary:
As you can see, a Christian is ipso facto a gentile. The same would be true of anyone who actively leaves the Jewish faith. This is why Messianics are not recognized as Jews by the state of Israel.
Atheistic Jews I’m less sure of. I think they would simply be regarded as non-practicing rather than apostatic.
As whiterabbit said, you don’t have to ask an Orthodox Jew, you can also ask a Conservative or Reform Jew…or you can ask the state of Israel.
“Moishe” Rosen’s real name is Martin Meyer. He is indeed a converted Jew but he has been an ordained Baptist minister since 1957. His “Jewish” ethnic practices are not authentic but are greatly distorted to fit a Christian agenda.
Polycarp we see eye to eye on this one. I know some good Jewish people whom follow Jesus, but also follow some Jewish customs.
Ben as I said to counter your post in that old thread. NO ONe but God knows who is going to heaven or hell. God is the only one who can judge that. Some times one can speculate as to where due to lifestyles. But ultimitly it is God’s decision.
Diogenes
When you say that Martin Rosen is a converted Jew, I can’t tell whether you mean that he converted from Christianity to Judaism, but if I understand correctly, that is not the case. He and his wife, Ceil, both were born Jewish. In fact, his family was Orthodox. He first heard the Gospel in 1948, and both he and Ceil accepted Jesus as their Lord in 1953. A year later, he enrolled in Bible college and eventually became a Baptist minister. Is my information incorrect?
To keep this thread from being further hijacked, I’ve started a GD thread:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=199927
Does the Bible actually go into specifics about the tortures of Hell, or is that just an assumed thing? The tortures of Hell are certainly prevalent in pagan myths, as well as Dante’s Inferno, but does the Bible actually go into detail about it? I’ve heard that the afterlife without Jesus’s grace would be bad enough to be considered Hell, but does the Bible actually say it’s little cacking devils with pitchforks?
Apologies for all the yelling. I got very frustrated last night because this is one of those things that just seems very clear to me. I’ll be more rational in the other thread – I promise!