Jewish law only applies to Jews. Those who are not part of that covenant need only be “righteous” to receive eternal life.
I have a question for those who believe in eternal torture in Hell.
If, as I’ve heard, Heaven is a place with no sorrow, do you forget about your loved ones who don’t make it? Or do you just not care anymore because we got what we deserved?
“In order that the bliss of the saints may be more delightful for them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, it is given to them to see perfectly the punishment of the damned.” - Thomas Aquianas
In The Genealogy of Morals, Nietzsche cites this quote as an example of why he thinks the inscription over the gate of heaven should read “I too was created by eternal hate”.
Luckily, not all Christians are looking forward to gloating over the suffering of the damned for all eternity, nor do they all believe that they’ll be in a position to do any such thing.
Man, go away for two days, and I have a three page thread already. That said, give me a break if I’m not here every day, and quit making references that this in some way means I’m not sure of my beliefs. Some I won’t debate, some I will, some are not worth worrying about.
Do I think someone goes to hell if they’re not a Christian? No, being a Christian has nothing to do with it. It’s about breaking the law, and if you break one point in the law, you break the whole law. Ben, you say I didn’t come out and say that, I think I did. Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written"Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
Now though, I’ve had a chance to think about this a bit, and I think I’ve mentioined about children already, but what about these people who never hear about Jesus? Those without the law are judged as not having the law, and I may have said that already. Also there is something about people who know truth, and surpress it, vs someone who has never heard the truth, although this debate tends to be a red herring as most don’t really care about the person stuck on the deserted island.
As for a loving God, let me again say a story. I’m a judge, and a man is brought before me for speeding. He’s my son, and I know the law says that for speeding, it’s a $100 fine. The fine fits the crime, as determined before. Do I love him less because I give him a fine? Now he’s brought before me for murder and rape, and I must pass judgement. Does my justice show a lack of love? The fallacy is that God sends people to hell for the fun of it, and that isn’t true, sin does. Now, if I tell my son that the punishment is so-and-so years in jail, that’s justice. If I say I’ll serve them for him, that’s mercy. If he says he doesn’t believe I’ll do it, so he’d rather do it himself, that’s not a lack of love on my part, nor is it a lack of justice on my part. I didn’t make him murder and rape, so how would I be sending him to jail? I’m doing what the law says I should do.
Now there was reference to us all being God’s children. Can someone please tell me why we are all God’s children? John says that 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God– 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
But nowhere does it say we are all God’s children. Not only that, but Jesus said that some ‘children’ were like their father, the devil.
That’s a great question, and I’ve often thought of it. I think, and again, this is my own belief, as I don’t know for sure, that we somehow forget about them. I don’t know though. I think this because it says Jesus will wipe our tears away, and that may be one of the reasons we have tears before we enter heaven. Again, I wouldn’t die for this belief, it’s my opinion.
Clearly, then.
The choices are “obey the law” and “go to hell,” right?
And “obey the law” means either “fully and in totality ober the Law of Israel” or “accept Christ as lord and savior,” right?
Now then, assuming those are correct summaries of your beliefs, please answer a question for me, plainly and without equivocation if possible:
If someone has not perfectly obeyed Jewish law, and is not a Christian, will that person go to hell?
er, that’s “obey the Law,” rather.
snort
I have leaned today that not obeying a single point from ‘The Book of the Law’ can be roughly equated to rape and murder, though this is (of course) a far more serious offense. I have also learned that the just and loving punishment for not obeying a single point from ‘The Book of the Law’ is an eternity of torture.
After such elucidation, I can only marvel at what tomorrow may bring.
I surely hope the J-man appreciates the fact that you are saving it for him, Svt4him. Does he have a special evening planned, or just a romp in the back of his camaro?
Svt4Him, am I reading you correctly?
You believe that God would send his most devoted followers to eternal torture simply because they made an honest error- an error made precisely because of their devotion to God?
Breakin’ the Law, breakin’ the law
Then what did Paul mean in Romans 6:14
or Romans 3:28
Or Romans 7:6
Or Romans 13:10
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 2:21
Galatians 3:11 (the very next verse after one you quoted above.
[quote]
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”[ /quote]
Galatians 5:14
Galatians 5:18
What did Jesus say about the law?
My understanding is that, according to Judaism, the Noahic commandments are binding on all people. Am I mistaken.
If they have not obeyed Jewish law, what is the Jewish consequence of this?
And what does Paul mean when he talks about no longer being under the law? Well, I think he was saying that those who put their faith in Jesus, are no longer under the law, as Jesus became a curse so we don’t have to suffer under the curse of the law. The law is for those who are still under it, and the law is good…hey, didn’t I post this before? But let me get the full ref, since I think I’ll be asked it anyway…
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Galatians 2:
14But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Gal 3:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[6] 12Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[7]
13Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
. 22But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24Therefore the** law was our tutor to bring us to Christ**, that we might be justified by faith. 25**But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. **
Notice it’s after faith has come, not before.
As for saying who’ll go to heaven and who won’t, I honestly can’t answer that. I can’t say all JW’s or Mormon’s won’t go to heaven. I know that the path to destruction is wide, and the path to righteousness is narrow, but I honestly don’t know people’s hearts.
In other words, you believe that people who are devoted to God will be sent to eternal torment by that very same God precisely because of their devotion.
Svt4Him:
If someone has not perfectly obeyed Jewish law, and is not a Christian, will that person go to hell?
Not eternal Hell. AFAIK, Jews don’t believe in an eternal Hell.
And would you please stop answering questions with questions? You are asked questions. Answer them; don’t try to change the subject. Don’t ask leading questions and not reply to the original post. It makes you look like either a coward or someone who is ashamed of the position they are supposed to be defending.
Ben- I’m not sure of your question. I think I’ve said what I believe, and I don’t think God sends someone to hell because of their devotion.
andros- the payment for sin is death. So are you asking if someone is in sin, and dies, what happens to them? They would be under the curse of the law, and yes, the punishment for that is hell. But God doesn’t want anyone to go there, and has made a way for all to be saved, whether Jew or Gentile, and that is through faith in Jesus Christ. Again, there are some things I don’t know about, although I do know children who die go to heaven, and those who have never heard the law are judged different than those who have.
Wow, did you only read the first sentence? And to imply I’m ashamed of the position is a bit of a weak argument. You’re taking a communication style, or lack thereof, and automatically applying it to a character attack.
Thank you for answering my question.
A follow-up, if I may:
On what basis do you believe that?
I may be the first to post, but certainly not the only one to see this plain, simple fact:
A devout Jew absolutely does not recognize Jesus Christ as anything other than a fellow human being, and therefore does not “believe” in him as a divine being. God is God, and that’s that. Jesus rates as a very good, if perhaps misguided prophet. Jesus is NOT God to a devout Jew. That’s why they’re Jewish (religiously) and not “Christ”-ians.
So, given that Jews (religion-wise) have no faith in Christ as their savior, or whatever he’s supposed to be, do devout yet humanly flawed Jews go to hell when they die?
It’s a yes or no question.
Ego, I’m going to ask you a question, what do you think I’m going to say?
andros- Suffer the Children to come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Again, John McAurthur just did a good teaching on this called Suffer the Children:
Sorry, but the plethora of religon vs. gays threads are really making me cranky, so let me spell out for y’all.
A. I don’t give a flying fuck what you worship, keep your gods off my back. Look, I’m happy that your beliefs give you joy, fine, good for you, But I Do Not Subscribe To Them So You Do NOT Get To Dictate My Behavior. Get it? The Muslims will not get me to stop drinking beer, the Hindus will not get me to stop eating dead cows, and the Christians will not get me to stop sucking dick.
B. The world will be a happier place when humans realize that gods do not exist. Stop this ceaseless wrangling over the doings of pack of itinerant shepherds who lived an ocean away thousands of years ago. Their tribal prohibitions have absolutely zero relevance to today’s world. Have any of you had to seethe a kid in its mother’s milk? Anyone here worried about the difference between a wave offering and a heave offering? Been pestered by any Amalekites lately?
C. While I think that knowledge of the Bible is important to make sense of the mass of Western art and literature, it’s just a collection of ancient chronicles and miracle stories, and therefore it is no basis for making decisions in 2003. You might as well make the Odyssey or the Eddas your sacred guide to science and law. I think the Upanishads are terrific sacred literature, but I’m not going to propose that we make the doctrine that the world was churned out of a bowl of milk in our science classes. I’m not going to propose that we venerate the cow or institute the caste system in the USA to please the gods.