Quite true. I’m sure this will turn out to be some fuckup with data transfer. If Abbott was told that the National Police Reference System showed that Monis had at some time had a licence, how did that occur? How did the NPRS get this data about one specific individual if ot was never true?
No, it would be hijacking. The appropriate place to discuss moderator actions is ATMB so you don’t derail the current thread.
For the rest, let’s please not turn this into a debate on Muslim attitudes around the world. If there isn’t a current GD thread on the issue I’m sure you can make one. Let’s keep this thread about the incident in Sydney.
Right - and since “nationalist” means something different, and “ethnist” isn’t really a word, when we’re talking about discrimination against groups like Jews, Muslims, Armenians, or Indonesians, we’re talking about racism.
No, people are calling for asking particular groups of Muslims or individual Muslims to specifically condemn terrorism. The reason that’s racist is that people don’t ask for that condemnation because they honestly want the answer. Consider the following:
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Aaron, Bahar, Christine, and Danny all work in an office in Melbourne.
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Bahar is an Australian muslim of middle eastern descent, while Aaron, Christine, and Danny are all white Australians who aren’t muslim.
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Immediately following the Sydney hostage taking, Aaron asks Bahar “do you condemn this guy, Man Haron Monis?”
Not only is that a weird thing to ask a person you know, what’s the reason it’s considered weird? The question isn’t being asked because he thinks Bahar is going to say ‘no,’ the question is being asked because Aaron can use it to bully Bahar, associate her with violence, emphasize her minority status, and emphasize Aaron’s majority status. It’s a way to depersonalize Bahar, treating her as a statistic rather than a human being who’s right in front of you, it’s a way of using collective punishment to denigrate the person in front of you because of something a different person did. That’s why it would be weird and rude (and racist) for someone to do that.
Ah, well I think “racist” has gotten overused and abused to the point it’s a joke. You know how a couple of black people might greet each other by saying “yo nigga what’s up?” I could see white people greeting each other by saying “yo racist what’s up?” That’s about how meaningful that word is these days.
That’s fine. You’re against bullying. So are most people. I don’t see an epidemic of what you’re describing, but certainly we need to remain vigilant against some wide-scale nationalist anti [whatever] outbreak. I’m not seeing significant amounts of anti-muslim fervor in Australia or the US.
What word do you use to describe sentiment against people who are Jewish, Muslim, Armenian, and Indonesian?
Just because you don’t like the word racism doesn’t mean it doesn’t describe the sentiment.
Actually, muslims are about 0.6% of the U.S. population but are the targets of 12.8% of the anti-religious hate crimes in the United States.
For contrast, about 2.1% of the U.S. population is Jewish, and they are the targets of 59.7% of the anti-religious hate crimes; perhaps 15% of the U.S. population is agnostic/atheist, and they are the target of 1.0% of the anti-religious hate crimes.
In terms of rates, crimes against muslims are second to crimes against jewish people in the United States.
What percent of Americans are responsible for these crimes? 13%? What percent of Americans support anti-muslim violence? 13%? That’s the amount of support Islamist extremism apparently enjoys among Muslims.
Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it isn’t real.
I don’t like what? Your post doesn’t appear to address the rate of anti-muslim crimes in the U.S. - is it supposed to be a non-sequitur?
Let’s address that “rate of anti-muslim crimes in the U.S.”. Your link shows (drum roll) 149 such crimes in 2012 in the US. 149. Out of Muslim population in the US of 3 to 6 million. That’s the rate. Would you like to compare that to Muslim support for religious extremism around the world?
Terr, maybe you and levdrakon are a little hung up on numbers and percentages? I’m guessing you’ve missed the moral principle here, which is you don’t punish one person for the crimes a different person committed.
There’s not some percentage of crimes where it becomes OK to bully Bahar[sup]See post #103[/sup] because of the actions of Man.
There’s not some way it’s OK to beat Zohreh Assemi or kill Sunando Sen because of the actions of Ayman al-Zawahiri.
Punishing person A for the crimes of person B is wrong, even if they happen to share a skin tone or a religion. There’s a whole bunch of philosophy on it - read the wiki article on collective punishment.
No. We acknowledge that bullying is wrong. You seem to be missing that every time it’s stated.
In your scenario of Mr. Bully cornering Mr. Muslim in the lunchroom and being a jerk, there are probably dozens of other people nearby who would tell Mr. Bully to quit being a jerkish asshole.
What kind of punishment were we discussing?
Since this isn’t the Pit, I think I’d better avoid commenting.
This would seem a relevant story:
Some choice quotes:
And:
Lakemba mosque has a reputation (fairly or unfairly) of for being something of a source of moslem extremism in Australia.
Have any of the surviving hostages been interviewed as to what demands the hostage taker may have made?
Phone call with the Prime Minister and demands to do with flags. The guy was batshit insane. But for his delusions revolving around his religion, and his religion happening to be Islam, the whole thing would have been regarded as just another everyday instance of some paranoid nutter going mad.
Just down the street from where I workhttp://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/photos-e6frewxi-1226130388350?page=1
If that’s the case, then why is it OK according to post #83 to bully muslims with no connection to terrorism?
I’m not sure I’m following you. There are people who say Muslims need to take a stand on terrorism but most people who actually pay attention to the news once in awhile would know lots of Muslim leaders have condemned terrorism and flat-out stated terrorists are wrong in their interpretations of ancient religious texts. Most reasonable people don’t expect Muslims to make a full-time job out of denouncing terrorism and whatever the jihad of the day is but there’s no shortage of jerks in the world.
I’m not talking about “people” - I’m talking specifically about Terr’s statement in post #83 that it’s OK to bully muslims by asking random muslims in western countries if they support terrorism.
Asking equals “bully”? Man, that’s seriously diluting the meaning of “bully”. How dare you bully me by “talking specifically” about my statement!