take your broad brush and shove it (a defense of Greek Life)

The BBQ Pit
1

Originally I was going to throw this response in to the travesty of broad-brushing going on in the “sorority eviction” thread, but my response really got in to the realm of trying to cut a few bristles off the brush, so I’ll throw this in a whole new thread to fight some ignorance. Not even sure if this is really a pit, other than, I suppose, pitting everybody who decided they can use paint rollers to cover the whole Greek System in shit.
As I suspected, there seems to be quite a dearth of Greek-Affiliated dopers (was just about to start a thread looking for them in MPSIMS too…) so I’ll take a stab at this.

(FTR I’m a Lambda Chi Alpha of the Epsilon Mu Chapter at the University of Florida, we’ve been continuously on campus since 1933 without serious disciplinary trouble)

Damn every time I write something I end up with like a ten page paper so I’ll see if I can condense a bit in the OP and respond to questions as they come up

  1. We get bad press. Almost exclusively. Yes, DZ did something deplorable at one chapter. Hell it’s even possible that the National HQ is somehow at fault, but it’s still not the fault of all the chapters everywhere; it’s still a massive generalization to fault the greek system for the failings of one organization. Think of this like Enron, one company does something massively wrong (maybe even 2-3 companies) but there’s still thousands of companies doing it right, but we don’t hear about them.

  2. The rush process involves far less “discirimation” against anybody than you think. Many of the people who “don’t get in” simply stop rushing, or feel that they won’t fit in to the system. Also, as far as diversity, it seems non-whites simply don’t rush as much, plus, those that do almost entirely end up in fraternities and sororities based around their ethnicity because that’s where they feel most at home (a key thing to look for when rushing)

  3. Want some good press? Dance Marathon, a greek-wide philanthropy across the country (at least in the East), at the University of Florida alone raised over 350,000 dollars for the Children’s Miracle Network. My chapter raised several thousand dollars and <I forget how much but quite a bit> of canned food directly for the North American Food drive this year, and we’re currently doing another canned food drive through the Alachua County School system. Almost weekly a greek organization has a fundraiser for a charity, and this week is “Greek Week” which culminates in a day-long service day for every Greek organization on campus.
    At Christmas, we hold a charity in combination with a sorority for underprivileged kids including making holiday decorations and a visit from Santa (ok, one of the bigger brothers dressed up as Santa…)
    Greek organizations are one of the leading places to get leadership experience, offer opportunities campus-wide, connect people with clubs in their area of interest, and generally have a higher average GPA than non-greeks.
    Lambda Chi Alpha offers an “impact leadership” course with four levels that is nationally respected as an excellent introduction to leadership skills and culminates at Level IV with a simulated running of a chapter.
    ALL that PLUS we get the comradeship of a close group of brothers (even if we’re not all “best friends”), in LXA’s case the ritual is one of the most powerful days of your life (and NOT because you’re getting your ass kicked), you meet beautiful, and even occaisonally intelligent women (i know several people who are getting married through Greek connections, and am pursuing a Greek lady at the moment)

That’s all just off the top of my head, feel free to blast the system or ask me about anything you don’t have a lot of info on in regards to the greek system and I’ll see what I can do to fight your ignorance (or since it’s the Pit, maybe just hit you over the head with your immense paintbrush)

2

I’m not going to say that the Greek system is inherently evil or that everyone involved in it is bad, but I’ll state my own personal experiences and observations as a resident of Bloomington, IN (home of Indiana University.) Not declarations of fact, not statements of ironclad truth, but my own personal observations. And let me be perfectly clear that I realize the Greek situation is different at different schools. With that said, here’s what I personally think of when I think “Greek system:”

Irresponsible and dangerous behavior: Every time I read about a physical fight in the student paper, it always seems to involve a fraternity, and when it doesn’t, it always seems to happen at one of the dorms that has the largest number of frat-bound “collegiate” types (striped polo shirts, North Face jackets, white baseball caps, Keystone Light beer, football - that whole lifestyle [and yes, there are definitely different dorms with different types of people in them here.]) Last year there was a huge fistfight between two frats at a formal dance, if I recall correctly. A few months ago a guy fled a fistfight at a frat house and ran into the street where he was hit by a police car. I read the student paper basically every single day, and a large number of violent incidents seem to occur at Greek houses. Not at art shows. Not at bookstores, cafes or places where indie rock people hang out. Not at the music school.

A general association with sleaziness and anti-intellectualism: I’m always seeing Greek letters carved into desks or written on bathroom walls, usually accompanied by the words “fag,” “dick,” “gay” or “fuck.” I don’t see “The Flaming Lips are gay.” I don’t see “fuck post-modernism.” I see “[insert Greek letters] suck dick.” When I see guys with frat clothes on or who look like they’re in frats (white, clean-cut, well-built, white baseball cap, tribal tattoos, etc - yes, I can often make an educated guess from the appearance - people-watching is a full-time hobby of mine) they’re usually saying “fuck” or “gay” loudly and trying to act blustery, tough, and cocky. When I see a Jeep Grand Cherokee with frat letters on the back, it’s often blasting out ear-splitting bass notes. Sure, there are members of fraternities who don’t conform to this stereotype, but again, I’m just relating my own personal observations from my day to day travels.

I know it’s a slippery slope separating people into social groups and giving them labels, but to offer some contrast, there is a huge music/art scene here, and the members of this group (indie rock or punk types, music/film students, hippies [the actual social-activist kind]) always seem to be polite, well-spoken, interested in expanding their cultural horizons, and never come off as sleazy, vulgar or obnoxious to me. I have never heard an indie rock guy yell “fuck” or “gay” on the bus. It just seems to me that here at IU, there are two cultures: those who want to learn, express themselves creatively, and be part of a scene that favors intellectual growth, and those who want their college experience to be a four year party and an extension of high school.

I know, I know, I’m unfairly applying labels to people, generalizing, using a broad brush. But you asked me for my perspective and there it is.

I think the Greek-related charities and fundraisers are good things, of course, but there are plenty of students involved in social action who are not part of the Greek system. And a close bond of friendship is always good, but there are of course many other opportunities for students to bond besides fraternities or sororities. A

3

Keystone light beer? No wonder…

4

So you’ve heard people yell fuck and/or gay on a bus? The image of someone yelling “Gay!” on a bus just seems absurdly funny to me. Same with a random “Fuck!”

5

I’m not buying that whole “they just don’t feel comfortable” argument; in fact, it sounds like you’re almost advocating what can be thought of as “passive segregation.” You may not be excluding minorities on the basis of color or religion, but your membership may be subtly making rushees feel unwelcome, or your fraternity has that reputation. Besides, how many minorities may bypass your fraternity altogether in favor of the fraternity that most caters to their group because they don’t think they have at shot at joining yours?

Congratulations. As Argent Towers pointed out, philanthropy isn’t limited to the Greeks. Penn State holds its annual “Thon” dance marathon to raise money for the Four Diamonds cancer fund at Milton S. Hershey Medical Center; this year, it raised over $5 million and had high-enough participation to hold it at the Bryce Jordan Center. This is the largest single college-student-generated philanthropic event in the United States, and while it’s organized by the Interfraternity Council, all students are invited to participate, and for all Penn State students and alumni, it’s a huge deal. And if you want bad press, you always have this little affair at the University of Missouri, in which a sorority president was held to account for forcing her sorority sisters to donate blood to get points for Greek Week. (The links are now outdated, but you should get the idea.)

As for leadership opportunities, they’re not exactly lacking on a college campus. There are other, non-Greek organizations that foster those skills, and some that are entirely devoted to the development of leadership and management skills, and I’m not talking about ROTC, either.

It’s not that I’m painting all Greeks with the same broad brush. But your attitude is typical of the Greeks that I’ve encountered on my campus. It’s fraternity/sorority uber alles; nothing else matters. I’m just trying to point out that one can have a perfectly satisfying life of leadership and philanthropy without belonging to a Greek organization.

Robin, GDI

6

I was in Delta Tau Delta at Washington & Lee, which got kicked off campus (twice) during my academic career at W&L and no longer exists as a chapter anymore. It’s a shame, too, because the house got booted just two years shy of its 100th anniversary.

My experience was that it was a fun bonding experience and I’d probably go Greek again if I had to do it all over. Yes, there was a good deal of idiotic behavior, but no more so than you’d typically expect from any large group of guys living in close proximity. Our particular house wasn’t very prone to violence (I can count on one hand the number of times there were brawls of any significance, and they were fought mostly to get rid of uninvited guests who had barged into our fraternity house). Binge drinking was mostly our thing, but then again, in the mid-90s almost everyone on campus was binge drinking. You could go hang out with a group of independents and they’d be doing the same thing. It’s what happens when you put a university out in the middle of rural Virginia.

We did our share of philanthropic stuff - fundraisers for the United Way, community outreach, stuff like that - I have fond memories of cleaning up empty beer bottles and trash on our fraternity’s adopted highway.

Yes, there was a bit of hazing. We used to joke that having pledges around was like having “remote control everything,” but by and large most pledge activities were designed to bring the pledge class closer together. Things like setting the pledges loose to get a Christmas tree for the house, but they can’t pay for it and they can’t violate the university’s honor system. (I’ve seen some creative solutions for that one, I can tell you…)

By and large, I considered it a positive experience. I wouldn’t encourage everyone to go Greek, largely because the Greek experience is so different as you move from school to school, and from fraternity to fraternity.

I’m also one of the ones who doesn’t like it when folks paint with a broad brush with respect to the Greek system. I’ve had people ask me how I felt about “paying for my friends.” I’ve been accused of racism with no proof whatsoever. I’ve been looked down at as someone who is “desperate to belong.” Stuff like that. None of it had a basis in reality.

I will say that the Greek system tends to bring a lot of this stuff on itself. Some of it isn’t the fault of the folks in a fraternity. I know of quite a few chapters that are very active in the community and their goodwill gets scarcely more than a column inch or two in the school’s newspaper when they do something good for the community. When someone has too much to drink at a party and there’s an incident, though, it’s front page news. I think there’s a fascination with fraternities because there’s some mystery with respect to what goes on behind closed doors, so when things get out of hand, the news media jump all over it.

No, I’m not living in denial. I know that there are some fraternities out there that promote completely irresponsible behavior. I’m saying that these are the ones that tend to get the attention, and not the ones that contribute positively to the community.

7

So you are a bigot. At least now we know.

8

Cripes! Don’t you and your frat brothers think it’s time to graduate and get on with life already???

9

Bravo, OP. Greeks do not get a fair shake on the SDMB. Whenever the Greek system comes up in a thread, the hordes of Greek bashers just come across as petty and jealous.

10

I’m wondering if this is sometimes an example of selective memory. Just like we remember the screaming brat in the resturant, but ddin’t even notice that there were half a dozen other children present who were eating quietly, and then mutter to ourselves about how parents these days don’t discipline their children.

11

Hey, they’re all past 90 by now and can’t leave the house. Besides, the sorority girls love to come over and play 78s on the big Victrola, plus they get major community service points changing all the Depends. And the brother with Alzheimer’s who yells random cusswords all day is a total kick.
:smiley:

12

Can someone explain the US “Greek system” to me? I get the general idea (shared housing), but what’s this about national associations and so on? What’s “rushing”?

When I was at university (Waterloo University in Canada), I don’t remember seeing fraterities and sororities at all; they may have been some, but certainly not to the degree that we see in US movies. First-year students were required to live in residence on campus; second-years and above could live off-campus (I shared an apartment).

I believe there are some fraternities associated with the University of Toronto, but I do not get the impression that they are numerous.

13

Uh, if you guys were so great and all, why exactly did you get kicked off campus twice in four years?

14

I anticipated this argument, but didn’t want to take up any more room in my OP. yes, as a matter of fact, we are selective in who we give a bid to, are you seriously holding this against us. We aren’t selective on the basis of race, etc. though, we’re selective because we’re a social organization that by and large has fun doing certain activities and if we don’t believe somebody will fit in well and contribute to our brotherhood we don’t give them a bid. So what? But again, most of the people who rush find the place where they naturally fit in without somebody quietly pushing them along. Think of it this way; Kappa Alpha order is a largely Southern fraternity, they even announce for and go to their formal in Confederate uniforms. Obviously, a black man would not feel particularly welcome here, but if somebody who’s right for KA walked in to Alpha Phi Alpha (a black fraternity) he’d be just as unwelcome there. Is this wrong? Not really, since neither both men can find a place for themselves in the system. Same with many Jewish Greeks who tend to join Zeta Beta Tau, or Alpha Epsilon Pi (though we have a fair share of Jewish members as well).
How, exactly, do you yell DISCRIMINATION because a naturally selective organization doesn’t take every rushing body? I think it’s a silly idea that we discriminate because we don’t give everybody a bid. We have sound reasons for not bidding and bidding the people we do and thought goes in to each choice.

@ the arguments about how “we all dress the same”. And your point is? It’s a subculture, we have methods of dress, mannerisms, and etc. same as any subculture, big deal. We aren’t 100% conformist to some vague ideal, I’d say there’s more variance of dress in the Greek system than there is in any “goth” or “indie rock” or “ghetto” crowd, so that’s a sort of frivilous argument.

and the rest of your point is, what? UF opens it to all students as well but it’s organized, and run by the Greek System, and so your point is? Of course there are other organizations that provide leadership, of course there’s other opportunities for X,Y,Z but by and large running a Greek organization as an officer is one of the hardest leadership opportunities available for most students short of Student Government (and around here, at least, Greek life is one of the major routes in to Student Government).

Many of the other activities for student bonding, friendship, etc, don’t hold a candle to the bond of an initiated brother (and yes, there are chapters that lose sight of this, but the same goes for any other “student bonding activity”, so claiming that it’s an inherent problem or advantage of non-Greeks is also frivolous)

more after this damn final I have to take…

15

enigm4tic, are you in this picture? Not being sarcastic, just asking. I googled your chapter and all I came up w/ was hazing violations at Bradley University in 2005. Meanwhile I learned about the various handbooks that are followed and pledges and promises the chapter members make.

16

Well, I didn’t exactly say we were “so great and all,” but if you must know…

When I was a sophomore, the house was scheduled to enter a program whereby it would be completely renovated and the university would take possession of the property. This was a highly controversial program, as fraternities house corporations had always owned the houses. Of the 16 national fraternities on campus, only one wasn’t participating in the program.

We were supposed to move out of the house my sophomore year at Christmas break. I left early to go home to Long Island. When I got back to campus, parts of the house were trashed. It seems a few of my fraternity brothers decided to make some “renovations” of their own. They completely destroyed a bar in the basement, kicked some holes in the walls upstairs and just generally left debris all over the place.

We held a meeting and disciplined the three brothers who did the damage. One of them didn’t think he did anything wrong. His argument was that he trashed stuff that the University was supposed to replace anyway. We kicked him out. Two others wrote apologies and offered to make restitution. I can’t remember the specific details, but I believed we put them on some sort of probation.

We received some sort of minor punishment from the Interfraternity Council, but then the university followed up and suspended us for 18 months. If you’ve ever been in a fraternity, you know that a suspension of this length is tantamount to a death sentence, since the fraternity misses Rush and doesn’t get the chance to replenish their numbers of departing seniors.

The house was eventually renovated, and we were allowed to come back for my senior year. But the effects of the missed Rush were devastating. We had a gaping hole in the sophomore class, and we didn’t pick up many freshmen that year. Some of the other fraternities dirty rushed us, starting rumors about why we were kicked off campus. (We heard some interesting things coming back to us, including a rumor that we had severely injured a pledge in a hazing incident, which obviously wasn’t true.)

In the end, the University determined that the chapter wasn’t economically viable and that we wouldn’t be able to fill the rooms in the house for the '94-95 academic year. They put pressure on our national organization to revoke our charter and the national organization complied, saying they would come back to campus to recolonize. They never really did. Since I graduated, we’ve launched two exploratory efforts into recolonization, but nothing significant ever came of them - the university blocked our efforts, largely because they decided to use our house for student housing for other organizations.

That’s about it.

17

Well, to begin with, it involves a fair amount of lubricant…

18

Maybe they’re members of the Tourette’s Syndrome fraternity. :stuck_out_tongue:

Seriously, although I was a GDI in college, I had many friends in Greek letter organizations. I guess at Buff State, fraternity and sorority members seemed more assimilated in general campus life; they weren’t off in some isolated Greek world like the scene some describe for smaller colleges.

My main beef with GLOs - outsiders seem to tolerate hazing far more when it’s a historically black organization doing it. In college, I saw an impromptu step show in front of my dorm, performed by a historically black sorority. When the temperature was below freezing. With the steppers in their underwear. Forcing a bunch of white kids from the 'burbs to do an elephant walk is criminal, but branding is a time-honored ritual and an act of unity. :rolleyes:

19

I’m in Mu Mu Mu! And I’m prettier, sexier, and hotter than all of you you YOU!

Sorry, but this opinion sums up why I think sororities and fraternities are stupid. So you’re popular enough, good-looking enough, and rich enough to be “welcomed” by a bunch of similiar people. You don’t need a fraternity or sorority to faciliate this kind of social networking. People make friends every day without the humiliating and expensive process called “rushing”. It’s a waste.

I don’t think all sororities/ fratenities are stupid, nor do I think their members are inherently stupid. But I do think the overall concept is stupid. It’s sad that joining a frat/sor is often the first thing people have on their minds when they start college. Not the excitement of being in a lofty academic institution, learning alongside people who are different than them. No, the first thing is to find people who are LIKE YOU and will accept big money to ACCEPT YOU. I just don’t get it.

As an outsider, all the frats/sors seem exactly the same. Of course, people in them will talk your ear off about how they’re different (Oh, those Alphas are soooo stuck up. Those Deltas are sooooo lame), but except for superficial idiosyncracies, they’re all the same. They pull from the same pool of candidates, they have similar histories, they have similar parties, they do similar civic duties, they require similar criteria out of their members. At least I can look at the academic fraternities and honor societies and see real differences. To me, GLOs foster the same kind of clique-ish behaviors that people are supposed to leave behind in high school.

One thing about true sisterhood/brotherhood…I did not have to interview my sisters or brother for me to bond with them. I don’t have to pay dues to my family for me to be welcomed by them, nor am I required to dress a certain way, party a certain way, or befriend only certain people. And I don’t have to worry about being kicked out of the family for becoming ugly and poor. It’s fine for members of GLOs to talk about the friendship and strong bonds they’ve developed, but they lose me when they start using words like “brotherhood” or “sisterhood”. That’s when it moves from being a well-balanced civic/social group to something akin to a cult.

20

I lived on Ohio State University campus for a couple years, right near frat row. While I wouldn’t say that all frats are bad, I will say that I saw nothing to give me a positive impression of the greek system.