take your broad brush and shove it (a defense of Greek Life)

[Jodi]

@whole bean

Because then 18-20 year olds would cease dressing the same, drinking too much, excluding others from their social groups, making bad decisions . . . to borrow from you I think I need a several of these: :dubious: :dubious: :dubious:

I never said Greeks had cornered the market on bad behavior. BUT IME, it is easier to be exclusionary when you are part of an established social group that is by it’s very nature exclusionary. It’s easier to drink too much if you’re part of an established social group who’s primary recreation is drinking too much. Conversely, it is harder to see that you are making bad decisions in terms of becoming more homogenized, sticking primarily with people who are just like you in terms of race, background, and socio-economic status, legitimizing exclusionary behavior – when you are part of an established social group that strongly implies that such behaviors are not just okay, but actually positive.

You don’t just think that maybe the kids in the post-Greek holocaust would form some sort of exclusive social organization to take the place of the now gone social fraternities? Nature hates a vacuum.

Ha! Like Greek organizations are so crucial to campus life that their removal would create a vaccuum that must be filled. A lot of campuses have little or no Greek culture, yet they seem to jog along just fine.

Would you break those up too?

Well, I don’t know. Can I decide then?

Ever consider the constitutionality of this restriction on free association?

Well, not until just now, but let me think: Restrictions on free association in private organizations are generally unconstitutional. However, there would be nothing unconstitutional in banning the organizations from using the resources of public universities, provided a rational basis for the ban could be theorized. But then, I never said I was lobbying for the eradication of GLOs – as if I cared – but only that if they were abolished, I wouldn’t cry over it.

It seems to me the GDI crowd is guilty of the sin the lay at the feet of the Greeks, i.e. they want everyone else to be just like them in their rejection of conformity. How conformist.

Ah,yes – Non-conformity as the new conformity. But this is bullshit, of course. The people who are largely excluded from white Greek life (especially in the south) include the poor students, the ethnic students, the international students, the GLBT students, the nerdy students, the awkward students, and the insufficiently attractive students. It would be hard to get in one room all the people who are de facto not ALLOWED to be part of the most powerful fraternities and sororities, and then see how they were “all the same.” Probably the only unifying factor would be that your “brothers” and “sisters” don’t let them in their ranks.

Look: I’m sure being Greek was great for you. It’s probably great for a lot of people (who are in a lot of ways a lot like you). I am in no position to say that your experience was inauthentic or wrong. BUT that does not convince me that on balance on a societal level (or even on a macro “college and university” level) Greek organizations are a great idea. I don’t think they are. I’m not really worried that YMMV, and I don’t know why your shorts would be in a knot that my mileage varies from yours, to the extent of implying that I’m stupid.

[Hippy_Hollow]

I really have to get some work done today - that dissertation is calling me, feeling neglected - but GLOs are one of those topics, like defining what racism is, that this board, IMO, just can’t seem to discuss without people generalizing and stereotyping.

I’d suggest to those Dopers who cannot see beyond their own particular experience, who just think that GLOs are pointless, that there really isn’t much point in having this conversation, is there? I don’t understand how one type of affiliation somehow appears to be illogical or lame or stupid, but participating in a chess club, or a Ren Faire, or a group of friends is somehow different? There are examples of idiocy and stupidity in every imaginable permutation of social organization. I hope Dopers would fight my ignorance if I made a statement like “Ren Faires are pointless and people who join them are deficient in some way… and I’m better for not being a part of that” - seeing as I couldn’t see it myself.

I am a member of a GLO. My undergrad experience sucked in a number of ways. I was incredibly naive and ignorant of what was really going on. However, I had friends who became better people and better leaders probably at least in part because of their work in a GLO. I also know those who did much worse, probably at least in part of what they did or did not do in a GLO. As a student affairs professional, I saw very good things in GLOs and horrible things as well. The vast majority of activities and events were pretty much middle of the road. College students get into trouble and times and it’s quite spectacular for the press - and in many cases, it should be. But it’s okay to take the DZ example, or one of the many stories about hazing that exist, and say that it’s inherently part of the problem of GLOs.

News flash: hazing, binge drinking, and date rape occur in many organizations and across the student body. I know for a fact some band clubs, service organizations, and even secret societies engage in the exact same behaviors. In fact, these behaviors occur in unofficial, amorphous student groups as well.

I am not a GLO apologist. I could fill threads with the stupidity I’ve seen and researched. But, as a Black man, for instance, I can tell you at the age of 18 there is nothing that Kappa Alpha could do to interest me in joining their organization. I felt much more comfortable with a NPHC organization. I have consulted with fraternity and sorority members about how to recruit students of color, and I do not doubt the sincerity of the students who have sought me out for advice.

In short, I endorse enigm4tic’s pitting of this attitude on the boards. Ren Faires aren’t my thing. RPGs aren’t my thing. But I’m not going to make assumptions about the people who do enjoy these activities, and assume that every person in those activities has the same mindset, the same involvement, and the same level of intensity about it. I really get disappointed with how many Dopers that I generally respect and think highly of have no problems expressing prejudicial statements about members of GLOs.

[Jodi]

@whole bean

Seriously, you’re being a raging ass. Maybe it doesn’t measure up to whatever lofty heights you’ve ascended to, but I was offering it as a counterpoint to the “all Greeks are drunk, underachieving assholes” mantra that’s created a din in this thread.

You wouldn’t know the lofty heights I’ve ascended to (or failed to ascend to) because I don’t post them on message boards. But be sure to let us all know when you make partner!

Take your fucking gold star out for a drink, or better yet sell it and put the money toward buying a fucking personality you hoary bitch.

By your behavior are you trying to demonstrate how great the Greek system is, or the degree to which it sucks?

I have no interest in debating with people who foam at the mouth over something as inherently piddly as the fact that other people in the world don’t think it’s Great To Be Greek. I may be a bitch – hoary, not so much – but only over stuff that matters. You are indeed a shining example of a product of the Greek system, and you are hereby cordially invited to kiss my ass, if you can jump that high.

[whole_bean]

@Jodi

I never said Greeks had cornered the market on bad behavior. BUT IME, it is easier to be exclusionary when you are part of an established social group that is by it’s very nature exclusionary. It’s easier to drink too much if you’re part of an established social group who’s primary recreation is drinking too much. Conversely, it is harder to see that you are making bad decisions in terms of becoming more homogenized, sticking primarily with people who are just like you in terms of race, background, and socio-economic status, legitimizing exclusionary behavior – when you are part of an established social group that strongly implies that such behaviors are not just okay, but actually positive.

Truly spoken like someone who has never sat in on a Greek organization’s executive meeting where things like liability insurance are discussed at length and where Nationals and Chapter Advisors are working to reig in bad behavoir. If anything,being bad would be EASIER if I was unaffiliated – no insurance issues, no oversight, no philanthropy requirements, no grades requirements.

[Jodi]

@Hippy Hollow

I’d suggest to those Dopers who cannot see beyond their own particular experience, who just think that GLOs are pointless, that there really isn’t much point in having this conversation, is there? I don’t understand how one type of affiliation somehow appears to be illogical or lame or stupid, but participating in a chess club, or a Ren Faire, or a group of friends is somehow different?

Chess club and Ren Faire are not exclusionary, to start with. Though if you were to make an argument about the inherent geekiness and stupidity of, oh say, Ren Faires, I wouldn’t argue with you. And maybe a bunch of posters would disagree with you – “They’re super fun! I love them!” – but I doubt anyone would be arguing that you were wrong about something so subjective, that you had to change your mind, or that you were a bitch or an asshole if you dared disagree with them.

I think the problems with sororities and fraternities have been pretty well documented, as have the stregths. So you put the negatives on on one side of the scale and the positives on the other, and you decide which side prevails. If you and I don’t reach the same conclusion, does that make me stupid? Does that make YOU stupid? Am I disrespecting you? Is my opinion necessarily uninformed? No.

And FWIW, and it may not be worth much, my opinion about HBGLOs is not nearly as dim as my opinion of the major white southern GLOs.

[whole_bean]

@Jodi

You wouldn’t know the lofty heights I’ve ascended to (or failed to ascend to) because I don’t post them on message boards. But be sure to let us all know when you make partner!

By your behavior are you trying to demonstrate how great the Greek system is, or the degree to which it sucks?

I have no interest in debating with people who foam at the mouth over something as inherently piddly as the fact that other people in the world don’t think it’s Great To Be Greek. I may be a bitch – hoary, not so much – but only over stuff that matters. You are indeed a shining example of a product of the Greek system, and you are hereby cordially invited to kiss my ass, if you can jump that high.

You chose to insult me not because I attacked you or someone you care for and not even because I engaged you directly, but, rather, because I offered myself as a counter example to a negative Greek stereotype. You have ignored my comments that directly respond to your erroneous assertions (influence of Greeks society members, for example) and, apparently, singled out my response to your initial, unprovoked insult as an example of “foaming at the mouth.” I once respected your posts and found you to be a rational calm voice for the legal community and our system of laws when confronted with uninformed criticism, but I will have trouble seeing you as anything but terribly small from now on. I am sure you don’t care, but know, you’re behavior in this thread is terribly unbecoming.

[whole_bean]

Jodi On rereading this thread, my guess is you take issue with this statement

To cast all Greeks, or the system itself, as inherently bad is the product of the sort of unexamined thought that calls the thinker’s intellect into question.

emphasis added

I stand by it. At the same time, your comments in this thread regarding the Greek system do not seem to fit within this criticism. Could you dispute the statement – i.e. it is narrow and, for lack of a better word, stupid to cast all Greeks and/or the system as inherently bad?

[Jodi]

@whole bean

You chose to insult me not because I attacked you or someone you care for and not even because I engaged you directly, but, rather, because I offered myself as a counter example to a negative Greek stereotype.

I found your bragging about your own personal success to be – what’s the word we’re using? Ah, yes: unbecoming. That said, it was not my intention to insult you; I doubt you can say the same.

You have ignored my comments that directly respond to your erroneous assertions (influence of Greeks society members, for example) and, apparently, singled out my response to your initial, unprovoked insult as an example of “foaming at the mouth.”

Yeah, just as a general FYI, once you’ve referred to me as a “raging ass” and a “hoary bitch,” I’m pretty well done responding to you and won’t be addressing myself to the substance of whatever arguments you make. That’s not just true in this thread, that’s the case in virtually every thread I’m in.

I once respected your posts and found you to be a rational calm voice for the legal community and our system of laws when confronted with uninformed criticism, but I will have trouble seeing you as anything but terribly small from now on.

Considering the source, I will endeavor to bear up.

I am sure you don’t care, but know, you’re behavior in this thread is terribly unbecoming.

I would have cared more at 1:50 p.m. And you might want to turn your Irony Meter on.

[Hippy_Hollow]

I think one thing that bothers people about GLOs is that they have procedures for social engagement and involvement that we all exercise individually, and think are perfectly okay. These procedures are public as well.

Let me see if I can make this clear. You are an individual. But sometimes you like being around other people. How do you make friends? You go out and meet people. You enact an evaluative process that is your own - and it may contain elements of sexism, classism, xenophobia, racism, ableism, and so forth. But you decide ultimately that this person will be your friend, or they will not.

Once that person seems like a viable candidate for friendship you inherently want to know that the person is supportive and loyal to you. You might wait until something happens and then assess is this is the case. Or you might test, or look at their behavior over smaller, less significant events to see if they are indeed trustworthy.

You also want people to contribute to your life positively. You want them to pitch in and help you when you need it. People who simply say they’re your friend, but do nothing else, aren’t really good friends. When you go on a trip, or share a pizza, you want your friends to contribute - and for those who aren’t able to, you probably are willing to waive that expectation for them. Like all good friends, you know there are other ways to contribute than money.

You also have rites and rituals that are unique to your circle of friends. Shared experiences, a favorite movie, certain catchphrases, etc. You probably have insider jokes that confuse and annoy people who aren’t in your group sometimes. Those rituals and traditions are special.

Most of these processes happen in our own heads. GLOs, and many social organizations have attempted to codify the process of how individuals associate and connect to one another. Could it be that when the process of finding, evaluating, and testing friendships is a little uncomfortable when it becomes a semi-public process?

Oh, and I agree with the poster upthread that mentioned that Black Greeks often get away with things at predominantly White campuses because people don’t understand that lines, etc. are part of the pledging process.

For the record, here’s how I quickly associate with a GLO. I basically did it in undergrad and had no use for it once it was done. I fell out with most of the brothers, most of whom I didn’t give two shits about before or after, but two or three that really hurt because I thought we were friends before. Life happens, you move on. I was invited to a men’s honorary organization that is essentially a super fraternity. The leaders were serious about trying to integrate the organization. I was unable to pay dues, so I received a scholarship, did the required activities, and made efforts to bring in other men of color (the next class was full of independent White kids, Black kids, and Latino kids). I thought that went well, for the most part, but a lot of people just thought the group was corny and chose not to affiliate. Trust me, if you were a person of color with a pulse, you would have a lot of people supporting your candidacy!

As a graduate, I was approached by several members and asked to participate in activities. I really enjoyed this and liked the association with grown men with jobs and families. Professionally, I worked with students in GLOs, and saw the gamut - the very best students to the very worst. Devout, religious, moral types, and the totally debauched, and everyone in between. Same variance for independent students.

If you met me in real life, you would probably not know I was Greek unless you asked me or you visited my house and saw pictures. I don’t have paraphernalia now, or even when I was younger. I don’t step (or dance) very well at all, and I have a hard time remembering all of the historical pieces about my organization. But I am a person that believes in the ideals and the commitment to service. Black folks often assume or ask because I suppose I do look like the stereotype of people in my fraternity. I usually try to figure out why they want to know, and if it’s cool, I tell 'em. My frat is working on some impressive national projects and I am proud of that work, and contribute to the efforts when I can. That’s how I identify. I don’t go to chapter meetings now because I am way too busy, but I can see myself doing it when I get a little older, finish grad school, and relocate to a city where I will be living for a while.

[Nawth_Chucka]

@Jodi

I found your bragging about your own personal success to be – what’s the word we’re using? Ah, yes: unbecoming. That said, it was not my intention to insult you; I doubt you can say the same.

Yeah, just as a general FYI, once you’ve referred to me as a “raging ass” and a “hoary bitch,” I’m pretty well done responding to you and won’t be addressing myself to the substance of whatever arguments you make. That’s not just true in this thread, that’s the case in virtually every thread I’m in.

Considering the source, I will endeavor to bear up.

I would have cared more at 1:50 p.m. And you might want to turn your Irony Meter on.

I bow at your feet and call your response fantastic and exactly what I would hope to write had I your wit and pluck. One can’t dial back to a debate after making it a very nasty sexist and personal argument, and I came to say just that until I read your post.
Brava.

[whole_bean]

@Jodi

That said, it was not my intention to insult you; I doubt you can say the same.

You can’t be serious. There is no other way to read your “gold star” comment as anything other than an insult. I appologize for offending your sensibilities with my post, which, on rereading, I see could come across as boastful. It was not intended that way. Consider the context. I opened a thread wherein broad generalizations were beng made about a class I occupied. I guess I was wrong to offer myself as an example otherwise. I am certain I am the first person in SDMB history to disclose details of personal success as a defense. I willl have to let that follow me for the rest of my life.

For the record, you were being an ass by making an unprovoked attack.

[whole_bean]

@Nawth Chucka

I bow at your feet and call your response fantastic and exactly what I would hope to write had I your wit and pluck. One can’t dial back to a debate after making it a very nasty sexist and personal argument, and I came to say just that until I read your post.
Brava.

sexist? and dial back?

[Nawth_Chucka]

@whole bean

sexist? and dial back?

Yes. Those are words. Perhaps dictionary.com can help you solve whatever riddle they present to you.

[enigm4tic]

So it is in many cases nothing more than thinly-veiled racism, even if you rationalize it as “we’re not going to let that black guy in because he won’t fit in well.” Exaclty how many black members were there in your fraternity at U of F?

actually, are, since I’m still here, living in the fraternity house in fact. There are currently 3 active black members, 3 active asian members, and 3 active Indian members. Since my initiation in Spring '05 we’ve given out quite a few (probably 15-20) unaccepted bids to those minorities who rush the general social fraternities.

Well, golly gee, I wonder why not! Might it have something to do with WEARING CONFEDERATE UNIFORMS? I love this thinking – hey, black guys! Not comfortable with us wearing 140 year old uniforms to our formal, from the side that fought to retain slavery? Guess that’s your problem and not ours – you “don’t fit in.” For cripes sake, how about making an effort to be inclusionary instead of overtly exclusionary? Wouldn’t that help with the whole problem of continued de facto segregation?

well fucking Golly Gee, you PICKED AND CHOSE FROM MY POST without READING MY COUNTEREXAMPLE AND EXPLANATION.

for the example at hand, Kappa Alpha was presumably originally founded by a bunch of guys who like old southern ideals, some of which are positive and they actually uphold very well (the KAs I know are quite chivalrous and respectful of women, and are generally polite), buy saying they discriminate against blacks because none join is like saying the NRA discriminates against anti-gun-advocates because none join. SO WHAT that that particular fraternity is based on ideals blacks might not want to associate with. Alpha Phi Alpha and many other majority black fraternities have ideals these same people WILL identify with and WILL want to join, and for that matter, the guys who join KA will get run out of A Phi A just as fast if not faster. So what? Both men have a place where they can share their ideals.

For that matter, we are working with A Phi A as part of our Greek Week team. Not surpisingly to me, but perhaps as a shock to you, I quite enjoy working with them even if they don’t share my letters, just as I have friends across the Greek system, and neither of us views the other worse off for “not being in my frat”

As a personal matter, if you can choose to associate chiefly or solely with others that look like you and act like you, I can choose to think less of you on that basis.

that’s just fucking silly. Even the most homogenous fraternities have a wide range of looks and acts. every fraternity has particular personalities and idosyncrasies. Sororities are the same way, not surprisingly. Even the “best” sororities around here have what you might call “ugly” girls, some of whom are in leadership and otherwise worthwhile roles in their “pretty-girl only” sororities.

Chess club and Ren Faire are not exclusionary, to start with

FUCKING BULLSHIT. Chess club is exclusionary to those who play chess, and Ren Faire is one of the worst examples of cliquesh dress-alike behaviors you can find, possibly short of a gothic club.

[whole_bean]

@Nawth Chucka

Yes. Those are words. Perhaps dictionary.com can help you solve whatever riddle they present to you.

Apparently you’re not familiar with the conversational tone these boards can take on. What that I wrote was sexist? How am I dialing anything back if I respond to an insult in kind? And I do think you should stick with this “toe in the water” approach to wit and pluck as your first outing was less than to be expected.

[OtakuLoki]

@enigm4tic

1. We get bad press. Almost exclusively. Yes, DZ did something deplorable at one chapter. Hell it’s even possible that the National HQ is somehow at fault, but it’s still not the fault of all the chapters everywhere; it’s still a massive generalization to fault the greek system for the failings of one organization.

(emphasis mine)

I’d really, really like to see where you’ve got any room based on the reports seen about the incident with DZ at DePauw, you can honestly claim that the national HQ isn’t at fault.

If you want to defend the reputation that GLOs have, please have at it. I tried to make clear in my own posts in the other thread that my reservations about GLOs were based as much as anything on personal prejudices, with little (if any) actual research done to back them up. I’ll even agree that it’s hard for GLOs to get positive press. Bad news sells, and so if a GLO organizes a bone marrow transplant registration, it may get picked up by local papers, and the school’s paper. But let a hazing incident get out of line, and it’s national news. I can’t say which behavior is more prevalent. I suspect that the ‘wild parties’ reputation has a bit more basis in fact than you’d like to admit, but I’m not going to claim it’s all that GLOs do or represent.

But don’t try to minimize the actions of the DZ national HQ, when the reports we have show they were the ones behind the attempt to “revitalize” the chapter at DePauw. That first bullet point of yours has me already taking anything else you might say with a huge grain of salt.

[Hippy_Hollow]

@Jodi

Chess club and Ren Faire are not exclusionary, to start with.

Are you sure? Are you prepared to make that blanket statement about all of them? Doesn’t one have to at least know how to play chess, or be proficient in some of them? Don’t some Ren Faires want people who are very invested in the suspension of belief, talking in medieval-speak, and so on? I’ll bet there is a lot of diversity in those groups… just like there are GLOs that are essentially people who live together to cut costs. And there are those where you have to recite the history from memory at every meeting… and every variant in between.

Though if you were to make an argument about the inherent geekiness and stupidity of, oh say, Ren Faires, I wouldn’t argue with you. And maybe a bunch of posters would disagree with you – “They’re super fun! I love them!” – but I doubt anyone would be arguing that you were wrong about something so subjective, that you had to change your mind, or that you were a bitch or an asshole if you dared disagree with them.

But I think saying that Ren Faires are stupid would be jerkish of me. I can certainly say that it isn’t for me, from what I’ve seen, but I imagine that there is probably a group of cool people that might encourage me to put on a leotard and drink mead… once. I can respect that they do good work for some people, even if it is simply putting people with a similar interest together. If I was to insist that they were stupid and geeky and never be able to appreciate that some might not fit that stereotype, I think that would make me something of an asshole.

I think the problems with sororities and fraternities have been pretty well documented, as have the stregths. So you put the negatives on on one side of the scale and the positives on the other, and you decide which side prevails. If you and I don’t reach the same conclusion, does that make me stupid? Does that make YOU stupid? Am I disrespecting you? Is my opinion necessarily uninformed? No.

I don’t agree that the problems/strengths have been given equal coverage. There is a tendency to extrapolate the problems - say, the DZ case at DePauw - and assert that this is part of Greekdom. However, when people raise examples of good behavior and community service, it seems they are viewed as exceptions, or nothing special compared to what other organizations do. I don’t feel disrespected in the slightest about this discussion, and I don’t think you, or other posters, are stupid. But I do expect the smart people I’ve learned so much from on this board to examine their own prejudices and be able to acknowledge that this is perhaps something they can’t discuss with an open mind or fairly. To me, to say that you have a general opinion about Greeks and GLOs, and it is all positive/negative is not really exercising your critical thinking skills. (Not you personally Jodi, the generic “you.”)

And FWIW, and it may not be worth much, my opinion about HBGLOs is not nearly as dim as my opinion of the major white southern GLOs.

Why is that? I am a member of a Black GLO and the same issues often take place in my organization. I have had members of my organization say that they refuse to initiate White members, for instance. People in my chapter were arrested for criminal activities. Many Black GLOs are older and more established than many of the others. Classism and racism exist here too.

[MsRobyn]

@whole bean

Who said they couldn’t?

And, not to Robyn personally, but doesn’t GDI seem just a bit, oh I don’t know, goofy as all fuck to you? Goddamn Independent? Guess what Goddamn Independent, you can’t goddamn spell, because goddamn is one goddamn word, but I guess GI was already taken.

GDI is college-speak, and as I understand it, is a relatively commonly-understood abbreviation. Wikipedia more or less agrees with me. And I’ve always taken it to be God. Damn. Independent, because that’s how I heard it.

Robin

[enigm4tic]

Just to throw out a general response to the above about GLOs providing their members with opportunities:

name a single organization that does all of the following

1. Provide a closely knit social network
2. Provide a basis for that intra-fraternal network via a unifying ritual known only to those within the fraternity
3. Teach members life skills and educate them as to many of the things they’ll need to know entering the real world
4. Provide members with unique career building resources (we have unique resume building speakers, leadership programs available only to members, career resources directly supplied by alumni in scores of industries that you can contact and instantly be assured that your brother will at least give you a solid hearing, and others)
5. Provide a framework for partying and meeting new people (particularly sororities during official social functions) that, despite what many may think, values safety (nobody wants to see their brother get hurt doing something stupid, even though stuff still does happen, but it happens EVERYWHERE, not just GLOs)
6. Organize and present members with opportunities across campus, encourage members to expand their campus involvement outside of the organization itself, and have dedicated resources in organization to help members discover new opportunities
7. Buy a lot of beer
8. Give motivation to excel through minimum standards that are higher than the general university requirements, including behavioral, gradepoint, and involvement requirements.
9. Provide a fallback network of brothers that can help with any crisis, are always available to provide general assistance in class, working out, getting a girl, getting a job, or any number of other activities.
10. Plan, carry out and manage philanthropic activities open to the community at large, as well as participating and contributing to other philanthropic events held by other organizations
11. Educate about and encourage members to participate in Student Government elections

Greek Organizations do ALL of this and more, no other single organization I can think of provides this much to its members.

On a side note, we don’t pay to get friends. We find our friends through the rush process (which is different at each school, Rush Week is dry and closely monitored at the University of Florida, for example), and pay so that us and our friends can have fun and attend unique events like out of town trips to away football games, semi-formals including out of town trips to nice destinations, social opportunities in town with date and sorority functions, general insurance and house payments, meals, etc.

(On Preview) Where I am, GDI is the common term for it.

[whole_bean]

@MsRobyn

GDI is college-speak, and as I understand it, is a relatively commonly-understood abbreviation. Wikipedia more or less agrees with me. And I’ve always taken it to be God. Damn. Independent, because that’s how I heard it.

Robin

I know. I was making a joke, the case being that goddamn is usuall spelled goddamn.