And of course, all your pledges are 21 or over, right? Liability and all… sorry, but this perk gets a :rolleyes:
(I did plenty of underage drinking in my college days. That is not the issue. My beef is your arrogance–you want to be seen as righteous and walking that straight and narrow…“hey, Greeks are the good guys!”, but then there is this kind of stuff. I don’t buy it).
[quote]
- Provide a closely knit social network. This is not IMO a good thing; it’s not what kids should be going to university for.
[quote]
What? ESPECIALLY at large universities a social network is essential. Perhaps “close knit” was a bit too strongly worded but the fact that I have on the order of 70 people that I am very familiar with helps IMMENSELY with further social opportunities. I can go out with 4 brothers to a non-greek party and at least know some of the people there. Sorority girls can go out and groups for safety (not from male greeks particularly, but in general)
Reducing the ritual experience to “secret handshake and related BS” is an incredible affront to many fraternities. Our rituals are secret precisely because from what I understand of others and ESPECIALLY with what I have experienced because they really do form bonds of brotherhood when performed correctly and have powerful messages and meanings.
so? I was saying the fraternity facilitates MORE skill building, adds on additional skills, etc. For that matter the social experiences, however trivialized, are incredibly useful for getting more comfortable in social environments, interviews, and introductory situations. I have seen people go from awkward to sauve in just a year with a fraternity. Even some of the most socially awkward brothers have undergone radical transformations with their dealings with other people since joining
All possible methods are exhausted to ensure that financial hardship can be dealt with. Yes there is a price, but there’s a price to hire a consulting firm, go out to clubs anyways, most general clubs have dues, you’re paying for University resources via tuition. As to selection, as I’ve said numerous times, almost anybody serious about rushing can get a bid at one of the fraternities on a campus. We have members from all walks of life and all level of ability that share some common attributes.
Yes but there’s a significant drive to improve this imagine and reality, which I made a stab at explaining. As to meeting people, NO the whole university is NOT for that. The university does not go out of its way to plan “socials” hold inter-greek barbeques, plan a greek week that brings 5-6 chapters together per team, hold routine inter-chapter meetings, or otherwise encourage people to meet each other. Again, I’m observing from the standpoint of a large university, YMMV
Right, I agree. My point was that ONLY GLOs do ALL of these things on the list
Hey I had to throw that in there, besides, for many college students that IS a perk. Like it or not, a huge fraction of college students drink, and I already explained drinking in the context of Greek life above
Again, I was asking you to name ONE organization that does ALL of these things for you. In point of case, we have dedicated Scholastic positions on the executive board with an oversight committee for brothers academic performance that also goes out of its way to bring scholarship, academic and career advancement and etc. to it’s members (for example bringing in a speaker to the house about resumes who can afford to give the smaller number of people some personal attention to each resume presented)
And a large part of Greek Life is friendship, brotherhood and sisterhood even, even if sometimes some parts of a chapter forget that, a majority of almost all chapters are very willing to help even their least favorite member with something if the going gets rough.
But every service organization also doesn’t do a lot of the other things on here. Which was my point
What. SG does a better job of encouraging members to participate in SG? SG is incredibly ineffective (at least around here, and from what I understand, in many of my friend’s colleges) at getting out word of available appointment opportunities to the general campus. A large reason why Greeks are so involved is because we have dedicated people that know about and inform the chapter as a whole about every leadership opportunity that comes up.
Oh and @ eleanorigby: No, but your point being? Again, did you know underage college students drink? Me neither, I also found out recently that Hitler was evil.
What? ESPECIALLY at large universities a social network is essential. Perhaps “close knit” was a bit too strongly worded but the fact that I have on the order of 70 people that I am very familiar with helps IMMENSELY with further social opportunities. I can go out with 4 brothers to a non-greek party and at least know some of the people there. Sorority girls can go out and groups for safety (not from male greeks particularly, but in general)
Reducing the ritual experience to “secret handshake and related BS” is an incredible affront to many fraternities. Our rituals are secret precisely because from what I understand of others and ESPECIALLY with what I have experienced because they really do form bonds of brotherhood when performed correctly and have powerful messages and meanings.
so? I was saying the fraternity facilitates MORE skill building, adds on additional skills, etc. For that matter the social experiences, however trivialized, are incredibly useful for getting more comfortable in social environments, interviews, and introductory situations. I have seen people go from awkward to sauve in just a year with a fraternity. Even some of the most socially awkward brothers have undergone radical transformations with their dealings with other people since joining
All possible methods are exhausted to ensure that financial hardship can be dealt with. Yes there is a price, but there’s a price to hire a consulting firm, go out to clubs anyways, most general clubs have dues, you’re paying for University resources via tuition. As to selection, as I’ve said numerous times, almost anybody serious about rushing can get a bid at one of the fraternities on a campus. We have members from all walks of life and all level of ability that share some common attributes.
Yes but there’s a significant drive to improve this imagine and reality, which I made a stab at explaining. As to meeting people, NO the whole university is NOT for that. The university does not go out of its way to plan “socials” hold inter-greek barbeques, plan a greek week that brings 5-6 chapters together per team, hold routine inter-chapter meetings, or otherwise encourage people to meet each other. Again, I’m observing from the standpoint of a large university, YMMV
Right, I agree. My point was that ONLY GLOs do ALL of these things on the list
Hey I had to throw that in there, besides, for many college students that IS a perk. Like it or not, a huge fraction of college students drink, and I already explained drinking in the context of Greek life above
Again, I was asking you to name ONE organization that does ALL of these things for you. In point of case, we have dedicated Scholastic positions on the executive board with an oversight committee for brothers academic performance that also goes out of its way to bring scholarship, academic and career advancement and etc. to it’s members (for example bringing in a speaker to the house about resumes who can afford to give the smaller number of people some personal attention to each resume presented)
And a large part of Greek Life is friendship, brotherhood and sisterhood even, even if sometimes some parts of a chapter forget that, a majority of almost all chapters are very willing to help even their least favorite member with something if the going gets rough.
But every service organization also doesn’t do a lot of the other things on here. Which was my point
What. SG does a better job of encouraging members to participate in SG? SG is incredibly ineffective (at least around here, and from what I understand, in many of my friend’s colleges) at getting out word of available appointment opportunities to the general campus. A large reason why Greeks are so involved is because we have dedicated people that know about and inform the chapter as a whole about every leadership opportunity that comes up.
Oh and @ eleanorigby: No, but your point being? Again, did you know underage college students drink? Me neither, I also found out recently that Hitler was evil.
Now for the other part of the post
So what? Almost any organization I can name requires dues of it’s members to get the benefits of it. Furthermore, the nature of the infrastructure of a fraternity requires money. Cook’s payment, buying food, maintaining the house, renting locations for social functions, supplying and maintaining equipment for philanthropies, National Dues, ritualistic materials. All of the money GOES somewhere, it’s not like an arbitrary payment or something. Hell, you have to PAY to get the benefits of a university, or a private school, or to get lessons on dancing, or singing, or playing an instrument.
Universities discriminate economically (obvious retort, you get scholarships), but we try pretty hard to get people through a semester of dues, sometimes alleviating a portion, or allowing them to be financially inactive for a semester, which allows them to attend ritualistic and other non-social events (the most costly part of our schedule), attending our house parties, etc. keeping them integrated as much as possible.
Social discrimination has been beat in to the ground from both sides in this thread.
Apart from that, I guess we’ll respectfully agree to disagree (wait, shit, is that allowed in The Pit?!?!?)
:eek:
YOU FUCKWIT! 
Who said anything about being righteous. There is a whole lot of “word in mouth” stuffing going on here. I guess I don’t get this. Greeks can respond to blanket accusations of being nothing short of wholesale criminal enterprises by saying, “Hey wait. We’re not all menaces to society. A lot of us do good things. And a lot of us turn out well.” And you point out that we engage in conduct quite common for college students (yourself included). We can’t win. Or are you NOT a “good guy” since you enagged in underage drinking, as well? I mean, if it makes Greeks not “good” then that applies to you too right? Or is it that Greeks simply won’t be allowed to defend themselves in your eyes because even if they absolve themselves from heinous accusations like rape, racism or physical abuse you’ll condemn them for the very same less egregious “illegal” conduct that you participated in. What is it? And by the way, when you make this sort of comment, the fact that you drank underage “plenty” is part of the issue because it goes directly to the credibility of your agrument – what’s good for the goose and all.
Not to speak for eleanorigby, but what I got from it was that if you’re trying to list good things about fraternities, you should probably reconsider putting what amounts to “We provide alcohol to underage drinkers” on the list.
I took it as a throw-away joke. It has been my experience that an underage drinker is far more likely to get unsupervised access to large quantities of keg beer at an unaffiliated off campus party than he or she would at a fraternity party.
This may be sidetrack-y, but in my experience the people who work at Ren-Faires are incredibly ready and willing to exclude others. Part of it is that many of the older ones who have been there for decades are apt to make it their entire social lives, and are unwilling to let newer, younger people into it. The newer, younger people that they do allow in have this very precise ideal about how you’re supposed to look, and when they get involved romantically with each other - and they only seem to do this inside the group - they touch each other all the time, which is something I’ve never cared for.
Well hell, as long as it’s supervised access… :rolleyes:
awww jesus fuck people.
That was a joke! I put that on there specifically because I knew that’s the sort of thing the anti-greeks look at us for. I apologize for not putting my own rolleyes in front of it.
That said, yes, we drink, and whole bean was also right in saying that neither of the two main defenders were ever trying to be righteous and I’ll defer to his defense as far as this goes. And again I’ve defended the context of Greeks drinking earlier in that same list regarding social functions. Especially recently, University officials here have recently been commending the Greek community for its turnaround as far as taking care of our own when drinking and making sure things go smoothly. My chapter in particular (I guess YMMV) is damn good about making sure people drive sober, don’t drink too much, or when they do, take care of the people who need taking care of.
enigm4tic, the bottom line is that you see mostly positive things, and I see mostly negatives. I don’t actually think either of us is 100% correct – as with most things, the truth is surely somewhere in the middle. But I do appreciate the passion with which you defend your affiliation; it’s obviously something that’s important to you (and Hippy Hollow and Thespos and whole bean) and for that reason alone I should avoid speaking dismissively about it. I promise I will try to keep that in mind in the future. I hope that’s good enough, because honestly it’s probably the best that I can do.
You roll your eyes, but the number of times I’ve seen sober party monitors intervene when somebody had had too much is enough that at least one life must have been saved. You won’t find that at an anonymous kegger thrown by “that dude with the neck-beard” in your apartment complex. I can tell you from having attended to OP’s school, UF, (though not for undergrad) that it would be easy to fall beween the cracks there, what with 40,000 plus students. It’s comforting to know folks are looking out for you and you in turn for them. And yes, though pushing the envelope at times, it’s my opinion that fraternity parties are far safer than off-campus “who’s he” parties.
The negatives are definitely there, and as I alluded to up thread, I really think that those negatives are amplified in the sorority context with such a premium on looks above all else at a lot of houses. I think it is a lot easier for a guy, any guy, from the D&D nerd to the uber-jock to the hippie-with-a-gold-card to the surfer to the you-name-it to find a place he feels comfortable. Like I said, having seen sorority rush from the outside, I wouldn’t want to go through it.
In a recent GD thread on fraternities I posted a link to this tidbit:
“Fraternity members consume an average of almost three times as many drinks per week as non-fraternity males. Sorority members drink almost twice as many alcoholic beverages per week as non-sorority females. A 1998 report from the School of Public Health at Harvard indicated that four out of five fraternity and sorority members identify themselves as binge drinkers.”
This doesn’t exactly support the notion that fraternities/sororities promote responsible drinking.
I guess so, I can’t help but point out that since I’m involved in the system that while yes it biases me but it also exposes me (as has been noted) to a lot of the positive things that non-Greeks don’t see and don’t get published.
This is a valid quote, I’ve seen the same thing and have intervened and stopped people from driving fighting and other things when drunk that disinterested people at “random parties” wouldn’t have cared to do (Mostly when a fight breaks out at a random party people besides the 2-3 friends with them cheer them on)
oops, didn’t preview:
I never said that the people drinking were any more responsible than other drinkers if not less so, but that there are more people willing to be responsible for those people than at other parties.
That’s interesting. I wonder if the same people would be predisposed to binge-drinking were there no fraternity. What are the stats on overall rates of alcohol consumption at schools without fraternities, I wonder. I went to school with two kids from Notre Dame that drank like evil whiskey fish.
Apparently, college reading comprehension is on the down sweep as well.
My point was NOT underage drinking, which I noted I had also done. My point was the you want to proclaim Greek as the Ultimate System for Social Networking, Resume Building, Charitable Outreach etc–but don’t want to own up to the fact that there is a dark side to all this bonhomie. By picking easy access to beer (what college campus, short of Bob Jones or Wheaton College doesn’t have easy access to beer?) as a PERK–you undermine your position.
Greek is here to stay. I don’t want my kids involved–if they choose to join, I won’t disown them. Sororities are a whole 'nother ball of wax, AFAIC, than frats, but that’s another thread. Obviously, YMMV and does.
thank you Garfield --that was my intent exactly. Binge drinking in college is NO joke. The fact that I did it does not mean that I support it.
That said, I will say that whole bean has a point–even if he didn’t make it. Not all binge drinkers are Greek, nor are all Greeks binge drinkers…but to tout it as a perk really doesn’t speak to the whole We Are Responsible Good Scouts. Unlike whole bean, I never claimed the great unwashed, aka the rest of the college student population, were Good Scouts.
Sorry for the double post-this thing is moving fairly fast for me.
I swear this is my last point. You are making gross assumptions about what did you call him? “dude with the neck beard”–talk about bias! I have been to both Greek parties (with the large room set aside, complete with dividing gauze curtains, so that all could go fuck after imbibing… dear God I wish I were making that up), and to non-Greek parties. I have seen many a(non-Greek) friend step in to stop a drunken(non-Greek) friend from driving. There is NOTHING inherent in the Greek system that makes it more compassionate or responsible than the non-Greek. There is also nothing that makes it less so, either, I suppose.
(sorry that’s so grudging–I have some truly bad memories related to Greeks–but it must be said–not ALL Greeks).
I suppose I am with Jodi on this. I will try to bear in mind that for some this is an excellent way to experience college. My grandmother was close to her “sisters” her entire life and ended up getting some emerald something or other from her chapter when she turned 80. Whatever. Not my cup of tea.