take your broad brush and shove it (a defense of Greek Life)

The BBQ Pit
101

For what it’s worth, I went to a university where about half of the students lived in independent living groups (mostly fraternities, but there were many groups that didn’t have a national organization). I know of at least two fraternities that were kicked out of their national groups because they didn’t conform to their exclusionary ideals (the AEPi’s weren’t Jewish, and the pikas were coed). Despite the fact that living at any ILG was invitation-only, I never felt that the system was elitist or nasty. I also never heard a student who really wanted to live at an ILG and didn’t get a bid someplace they liked, even if it wasn’t their first choice, nor do I remember anyone receiving unpleasant treatment from a house that wasn’t going to give them a bid. (There was only one that I was really interested in, and they decided not to give me a bid because I was a transfer student, and they already had too many girls in my year. They were very nice about it, and encouraged me to hang around as much as I wanted while making it clear that I wouldn’t be able to live there.) People simply lived with reasonably like-minded people, in groups that developed their own personalities and traditions (and that went for the people who lived in the dorms, too - those people at Senior House were weird).

So I don’t really see the problem as inherent to GLOs. The organizations may have been adopted by oppressive and discriminatory groups at some campuses, but the system doesn’t have to be broken.

102

and as whole bean pointed out in post #85, none of us ever said we WERE responsible “Good Scouts” I was defending the broad-brush notion that seemed to say fraternities were inherently evil. Yeah we drink a lot. But yeah we do a hell of a lot of other stuff.

and as people gathered (and that I failed to allude to in my original post on this subject) I basically threw that in there as a throwaway joke because of the expected comeback.

Now as to the fact that it is no joke as an actual topic, sure it’s not, but like you just said the problem isn’t inherent to the Greek System, and saying “we buy a lot of beer” as a laughing matter is a far cry from laughing off the idea of serious harm being caused by serious binge drinking.

103

Fair enough (although the joke aspect of it wasn’t clear to me). But what is with the whole litany of Postive Attributes that Greeks Have (the one stop shopping post) That No Other Organization Can Possible Match, then? If it wasn’t to claim the essential goodness of Greek, what was it? Anything on that list can be obtained by just living life and being attentive and proactive. Please don’t say that members of Greek are that–there are too many who just want to party etc.
I am going out of town in a few hours*, so I am sorry I can’t continue this much longer. I do not count Greek as Evil, but I do look askance at it. You won’t change my mind on that–only a more positive personal experience (now from one of my kids) would do that. Sorry, but that is life. (not meant to be snarky, just a fact).

I’ll check in one more time before I leave. Good discussion, even if it does get heated at times.

*Ironically enough, I will be on the Uof I campus during their “Un-Official” St Patty’s day celebration–March 2. I’ll get a field trip into student drunken-ness of all kinds–considering where I’m going is right close to Frat Row (or whatever it’s called), I’ll see that AND Green St (the major congregating location for all students, Greek or no). I can hardly wait… :wink:

104

No arguement. I don’t like being around people who are drinking or drunk, so that’s a large part of why I had no interest in GLOs, myself. Of course, I avoided any college activities where there were copious amount of booze. It sticks out in my mind when I think about GLOs because it’s perhaps the most visible portion of Greek life to those outside of the circle. (Yes, in case you’re wondering, I went through my teens and tweens with a broomstick up my arse.)

Specifically, it left me thinking that if you were giving the DZ national HQ a bye for their part in what happened at DePauw, what other use of rose-colored glasses might be behind your other examples. It’s not an attack nor criticism of your knowledge, but raised some question in my mind as to how valid your other specific examples might be.

I really don’t have a horse in this race. You couldn’t have gotten me to join a GLO for love of God, money, country, nor even nooky. I’d been far, far too burned by the “in” group in my primary school days to find the idea anything but a promise of torment. That doesn’t mean that I think GLOs are worthless, or a blight upon the land. And frankly, the worst behavior I’d ever seen at college was from the general population in the dorms, not the any of the frats. (Fucking riots are riots, I don’t care if the Minutemen just won the March Madness or not.) I just wanted to point out that when you begin your arguments with something that seemed that flawed to my mind, it damaged your credibility on all your other points.

<Waaay off topic hijack>

Since you’re a guest, I’d also like to make a suggestion: When you’re responding to more than one person in a single post, and quoting from them, it’s a very good idea to attribute the quotes you’re using. This can be done by typing in square opening bracket “quote=poster” square closing bracket, followed by the quote you wish to cite, then closing the quote as you’ve already learned, where “poster” is the username of the person you’re quoting. Thanks!

<End off topic hijack>

105

Sure it was a litany of positive attributes of the Greek System, but like I said, my position in the argument was too present “the other side”, tripping on about the flaws that we do in fact have wouldn’t accomplish anything since the anti-Greek crowd is plenty familiar with all of these arguments already.

And? My point was that the fraternity (in addition to being a great social club by itself) is a focal point for many of these opportunities, including opportunities only available to the Greek Community, and has entrenched, additional resources for these things, as well as officers dedicated to finding more of these opportunities. I acknowledged that many of these things are accessible outside the Greek community while additionally saying that the Greek community was a great motivator and resource center for finding and bring to light many of the more obscure opportunities. Additionally the chapter offers easy to access and more personal versions of many of the resources afforded by the university itself

106

Otulaki thank you for saying (part) of what I was trying to say, but you said it much better…

And now I am off to Champbana…

107

Overheard by a professor at my school…

“You can’t report him for rape! If you do, his frat won’t date any of us anymore.”

He swears to God.

108

Presumably this is two girls speaking to each other.
I think the girl speaking was incredibly silly. But then, incredibly silly girls are all over the place, GDI or Greek.
But did he hear the rest of the conversation? Was there a context? I hear 10-15 out-of-context WTF are they talking about?!?! lines just walking through campus in any given day. I can probably give you 3-4 examples of me saying something that sounds just as ludicrous to a passerby as that does.

But yeah, that’s fuckin stupid, but no, one stupid person can’t bring down a whole system, if that was true, the whole world would constantly be a shitstorm. Reference the thread title if you’re trying to make the lot of us sound back because somebody is a total idiot. In my experience, even the mere hint of any sexual impropriety against one sister will send the whole sorority scurrying away post-haste from that fraternity, or at least completely avoid the guy in question. And we take accusations of it extremely seriously, and we’d be having a serious sit-down to hash out the details of exactly what happened as soon as we hear any rumour about anything of this sort.

109

Well as long as there would be a “serious sit-down” I can’t see what all the fuss is about. And I am sure the “brothers” who have formed such wonderful long lasting, deeply held emotional bonds would be able to see the situation objectively. Who’s more likely to be telling the truth, the girl who after all, had been drinking your booze at your party at your house, or your “brother” with whom you have bonded through initiation ceremonies and who has been taught by the fraternity to respect women? :rolleyes:

Forgive me for not seeing fraternities as the best police for their own behavior.

110

Where the hell did you pull this response from? What part of the fact that a mere accusation brings about a serious conversation with the executive board with real punishing powers and who are seriously concerned with both the welfare of the women who choose to associate with us and our image as a whole implies that we’re poor self-police? if that accusation is proved to be true there’s no doubt he’d be in serious legal trouble, but we aren’t the real police and that’s not our province. We would certainly take other fraternity-related actions. If somebody were to outright rape somebody I have no doubt we would pull his pin or dis-associate him quickly, since he’s violated the trusts and oaths that he’s taken in becoming a brother.

111

I don’t think members of a group generally are the best people to discipline other members of that group. Police review boards made up of police create at least the impression of partiality. And when you tell people how you formed intense bonds with your “brothers” through initiation etc, you have to forgive them for maybe assuming you aren’t the most impartial investigator ever, even when the investigation takes the form of a “serious sit-down” that might even lead to the pulling of a pin.

Nothing you have said has altered my view of fraternities. I know plenty of good people who were in fraternities, but I also know plenty of idiots. I had nothing but bad experiences with fraternities and frat boys in the three years I was exposed to them directly, and certainly saw nothing whatsoever to indicate that they were on the forefront of treating women with respect.

This kind of sums it all up for me. I’m glad you have “no doubt” of this. But do you really think his violation is of some fraternity code, rather than the violation of a woman, and the violation of a code of decency that exists by the very nature of being a man?

112

I just got back in town, and I made the comment in the other Greek Life thread (about the discrimination) and I would like to voice my opinion in here.

I haven’t read this whole thread. I had a meeting and when I got back I felt bad and wanted to say something before going to bed.

I am a member of a Greek organization at a small university. I would like to respond to a few comments I have read so far.

1.) All Greek members are exaclty the same -> again, it was mentioned that they dress alike and look alike - guess what…all those gothic kids who wear the same color everyday - they all are individuals because of the clothes they wear (that look the same).

It doesn’t bother me that this generalization is made, but apply it evenly. Also, I can promise that if there was a picture of our chapter up (there isn’t because we are working on it) - we do not all look the same. We are not all white, upper-class students with polo shirts and the same tattoos. Several of us have tattoos - mine is more of a fun thing I wanted to do instead of something they pressured me into doing. It was my decision, and several of them said it was a crazy idea and I did it anyways. We are never pressured to look alike. We do wear letters to specific events, but so does Student Government (they get 2-3 shirts a quarter with SGA on it) and any other group (A.H.A.N.A. has them as well) - because they wear them, that makes them a bad group who is conformist? I just don’t follow the logic.

2.) Greeks do not have any lives outside of the fraternity/sorority - We have certain rules. Yes, you have to show up to meetings if you can. We have a hierarchy of what goes on and what you should be dedicated to. The list starts with family - not fraternity family but biological family. The list then goes to academic obligations - which is what college is (should be - given it isn’t to some people. Those people are not just Greeks.) about. The other obligations are important, and fraternity comes in about 5th to anyone in our group. The reason is, we are adults. If someone has to work during a meeting time, we allow them to miss - it’s perfectly acceptable. I can understand that if someone wants to sit in their dorm and drink, they wouldn’t be excused. Is that an excuse for class? Never thought it should be.

3.) George W. Bush was in a Greek organization - therefore all Greek students are like him. Wow, what sound logic. Apparently, if any person who is alumni from one organization, their behavior is applied to the entire organization, and any related one, because they are a representative. To be completely honest, I think that is shit. I’m sure very evil men (and women) were attached to organizations that might not agree with all thier behavior. That might look bad to an outsider, but the related organizations should not be punished. I think I am reading this right…that basing opinions of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of people, on the actions of one is somehow sound logic? Talk about painting with a broad brush.

4.) A lot of Greek organizations are full of drunks - The way I see it, colleges are full of drunks. So are bars and nightclubs. I don’t think that is a reason to discriminate against pursuing higher education because people there often drink. I also don’t think it is right to expect people not to be drunk in bars or restaurants. I know that I have hardly gotten drunk with the brothers here. I drink with them, a beer or two, and then I come home to my apartment and spend time with my family (future-wife - 12 days till the wedding - and our puppy) I have never been harassed because of this, nor did I have trouble with the organization because other things sometimes come first. I know many people drink. I figure the same logic can be applied to members of all sports organizations. They drink sometimes, therefore all athletic teams are full of drunks. Football player use steriods sometimes - apparently anyone on a football team must be because that is also the same logic.

5.) Greek organizations breed rapists and such - I realize that some people will commit sex crimes, as well as violent crimes, but they are not limited to those who wear some Greek letters on their chests. I would ask for a cite if anyone claims otherwise, and if it has been written already, I will find it when I review the thread again after this post. Apologies in advance if I am wrong, but I would like it to be proven with sound studies and statistics from a reliable source.

6.) Apparently, all Greek organizations are bad because they draw graffiti. I understand that seeing letters carved into a desk or wall is a bad thing. I also understand that if I go write “Brendon Small is God” on the wall, it is bad. Graffiti is a problem. I think that it would be a bad idea to blame Greeks for writing the words “’Greek Letters’ suck dick.” Anyone could have written the suck dick part. Anyone could have written the letters. I don’t believe that because my name is written on the wall, the school should find that I am guilty because my name is there. Anyone student could have written graffiti that says anything – to condemn a organization because their name was somewhere is pretty much accessible to any member of an institution of learning.

7.) ““I’m right and you’re stupid” – always a winner of an argument.” – Yes, I know some people would use that to show what people say to defend organizations. I do not mean to imply that anywhere in my post, and if I did, I apologize. I also don’t think that it is a proper use of logic to argue that anyone in a Greek organization is stupid. I’m not saying that you did this toward either side in post #34, Jodi, I am simply using it as an example. It’s wonderful how people who discriminate against anyone can claim that they are right because the other side if lacking intelligence. Of course, it can be applied both ways.

8.) I read somewhere (in this thread, if I remember right) that many students choose to join fraternities and look forward to in going into college. This gives me the impression that people who are joining are “young and naïve” about social situations and are sucked into the Greek life. Our organization does not recruit or bid only freshman who fit a certain standard. Out of the 14-16 of us active, at least 4 are non-traditional students (myself included). They joined because they enjoy the company of the people in the organization, not because they were pressured into doing so. We are not all the same and never would want to be. Apparently, people assume that we are no matter what facts are presented to them.

I am trying to not paint with a broad brush. I know that many people will never agree that Greek organizations are important. That is fine with me. To paint a picture of me as a drunk, rapist, poor student because I belong to an organization is not something I enjoy. For me to paint a picture of any non-Greek student regardless of their personal life and academic life is also not something to be enjoyed. That is simply the way I feel.

Brendon

113

Yeah…that’s pretty much true. It was somewhat of a running joke in my fraternity that we had an elite inner circle who’s high criteria for membership was owning the same Black Watch Green plaid shirt from J Crew, L.L. Bean, Abercrombie & Fitch, Ralph Laren, or Eddie Bauer. What made it funny was not that we all went out and bought the same shirt on purpose, but that we just all happened to have it. And it’s not just my fraternity. When I lived in Boston, I met up at a bar with 5 of my friends, all fraternity guys from different fraternites, all wearing a similar looking outfit. Finally one girl asked “why are you guys all dressed alike?”.

I would be lying if there wasn’t a superficial “sameness” about a lot of guys who join fraternities.

That sameness can get annoying when it starts to feel like every conversation is essentially with the same person, even if you just met them.

What’s was really annoying was the sameness of every party. One of my brothers was a professional DJ at a local club. When he tried “spinning” at some of our parties, it would be a disaster because the only thing people wanted to hear was the same mishmash of frat-rock, jam bands, classic rock and hip hop they play at every other frat party and bar.

114

They didn’t have a greek system at my college, and we sure saw our share of drunken idiocy, disrespect for women, and confrontational or conformist behavior. Heck, you don’t even need college to find groups of young men doing those things.

They’re not any more dangerous than any other college social group. They’re just kind of… boring.

115

All I can say is:

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

116

I don’t think they create the attitudes, but I certainly think they enable them. I can look some cites up on it later if you like.