I don’t mean to be pessimistic, but I see a future case of burn-out here.
Should educators ignore values, principles and thics? Of course not. Just answer whose values, principles and ethics they should address. Sex outside of marriage? Try discussing that with the student born outside of wedlock. Drugs? Abortion? Gay rights? Any ethic, priniple or value you come up with will have someone personally affected by it IN YOUR VERY OWN CLASSROOM.
Should you teach the kid first and the content second? Sure. That means you’re preparing 30 separate lesson plans for every class, every day, right?
Sometimes you just have to work with what you’re given.
First of all, I think teacher privileges make perfect sense when they concern things teachers need in order to do their job. Driving to school is a necessity for most teachers, a luxury for students, so teachers should get the parking spaces.
This, however, bothers me:
On the one hand, I don’t think teachers should have to use filthy bathrooms (or, for that matter, staircases hundreds of students are charging down like a herd of buffalo). Teachers have enough to put up with already. On the other hand, it seems equally wrong that students don’t have a choice about using these facilities, regardless of how intolerable the conditions are, and regardless of whether they personally have done anything to worsen these conditions. Plenty of students like soap, too, and are just as miserable as adults in filthy bathrooms.
Most students are perfectly capable of using a bathroom without trashing it – they do it all the time at home, after all. I suspect that one of the reasons they behave so badly in school bathrooms (and halls, locker rooms, cafeterias, etc.) is that these areas are basically student ghettos. They know they won’t run into any teachers there, and furthermore the custodians have usually stopped trying to keep the student bathrooms in decent condition, sending the message that they are there to be trashed. Common bathrooms might well be a civilizing influence on the 10% of students who don’t use the bathrooms responsibly, and they’ll certainly benefit the 90% who do.
The only cynic here is you. You assume that I said this comment in a sarcastic tone. I didn’t. I had my arm around her and was smiling at her at the time. I don’t condescend to my students, Cruktar, so you can keep your assumptions about teacher condescension to yourself.
The only time I get to go to the bathroom during the day is at 9:00 A.M. or 12:55 P.M. I have an eight minute window to get to the faculty restroom, do my business, and get back to class before the bell rings. It is a necessity that I be able to get into a restroom NOT packed with girls so that I may empty my bladder. Whenever I’ve tried to use the student restroom, I never get past the throngs of girls in time to tinkle. Students are allowed to take a pass to the bathroom at any point they wish during class. I don’t have such a luxury.
Student bathrooms at my school are spotless in the mornings. I do use them before school starts (school starts at 7:20 A.M.), but by break at 9:00 A.M., the bathroom is already a mess.
Shrew, upon re-reading, my reaction was somewhat knee-jerk, and I apologize for that. However, I still believe that the comment was inappropriate. In my defense, there was nothing in your post to even hint that the comment was made in a light manner. Taken with the overall tone of the post, and your earlier response that too much time is spent focussing on students’ rights, I’d say that my assumption was not unfounded.
To be honest, jacksen9, it sounds like you’re doing an excellent job of addressing the needs of your students. I’m not a teacher, and obviously don’t have any training in education, so I’m not really qualified to critique your teaching methods, but, since you asked, I guess I can put out an opinion without muddying the waters too much.
Because you’re teaching a course which has a curriculum that involves things like “family values,” “character,” and “leadership,” I would first make sure the students understand the key terms that you’ll be using. Things can get confused really quickly if you have five different students defining “ethics” five different ways. Also, if possible, I’d avoid really teaching one side of an issue or the other. I took a class a little like what yours sounds like once, and we were simply given a topic to research and form our own opinions about. I think that supplying your students with balanced information about both sides of any given issue and allowing them to debate between themselves is a lot more effective than trying to teach them one kind of character trait or another.
Again, I’m no expert, but am just speaking from my personal experience as a high school student.
I’m very much bothered by the idea that teachers should address such personal matters from one side or the other. I don’t see anything wrong with a teacher equipping students with the intellectual tools required to decide whether or not s/he believes in premarital sex, recreational drug use, gay rights, or anything else, but attempting to influence those views is, to me, very wrong. I am perfectly capable of forming my own views from outside sources without intervention from school.
**Should you teach the kid first and the content second? Sure. That means you’re preparing 30 separate lesson plans for every class, every day, right? **
Ha… NO WAY. I would not be able to get that done. Kid first, content second - I want to make the effort to be reponsive to the needs of my students. I don’t want to be so structured and rigid that I find myself “covering” the material, instead of helping the students learn the material. I sometimes get overly concerned with pace. As I think back on the semester, the most powerful moments have happened as a result of flexibility, not structure. I find that what I really want is control and predictability. This is so boring.
I believe student rights are so very important. Specifically students have a right to timely and quality feedback. I am terrible about picking up an assignment and not getting it graded and back to the kids in a timely manner. At some point it just turns into a grade - which has no meaning. If however, I get assignments graded and make written comments and suggestions, this is feedback - a teaching tool. Next semester I might make a policy that says something like…if you don’t get feedback on an assignment within one week, it turns into an automatic A.
I’m very much bothered by the idea that teachers should address such personal matters from one side or the other. I don’t see anything wrong with a teacher equipping students with the intellectual tools required to decide whether or not s/he believes in premarital sex, recreational drug use, gay rights, or anything else, but attempting to influence those views is, to me, very wrong. I am perfectly capable of forming my own views from outside sources without intervention from school.
I agree that these are personal issues. But all of these issues are connected to reponsibility or respect or both. I wish students would make decisions about sex based on intellect. Forming views - this would be productive. A good number of my students really don’t “form views”. I see them kind - of going with the flow. May of them operate without intent.
And I want my students to form their views from “inside sources”. I want my students to build a belief structure that makes them capable of making decisions with sureness and clarity.
I apologize for my kneejerk reaction to your kneejerk reaction. (Sheesh. I had to retype that twice.) Tone is so easily lost in the written word.
I agree. I go to great pains to argue issues from both sides in the classroom so that the kids won’t know on which side I stand. Only after the discussion or debate is over do I reveal my beliefs, but that’s only if they ask directly.
You’re right, they are important issues related to responsibility and/or respect, but I guess I’m not getting how this pertains to school, or how one can really teach responsibility or respect in how they pertain to these issues.
For example, take premarital sex. Should you teach that respect for yourself entails waiting until marriage for sex, or should you teach that respect requires that one make a decision based on his/her own readiness and that of his/her partner, regardless or marital status? They apply to both sides of every issue.
To me, words like “responsibility” and “respect” are, when taken in relation with social issues, so broad and generalized as to be completely impossible to teach about effectively.
Secondly, I don’t understand how the fact that responsibility and respect are involved in important decisions about sex, discrimination, etc justifies the school system’s involvement in students’ private lives.
Again, jacksen9, I’m not criticizing you personally at all. It sounds to me like you’re doing a wonderful job presenting the material - I’m criticizing the curriculum.
I just read these posts and I believe this would possibly fall into the hijack category. I apologize and after this post, I will only respond to the OP. Sorry Manda Jo.
**To me, words like “responsibility” and “respect” are, when taken in relation with social issues, so broad and generalized as to be completely impossible to teach about effectively. **
In my class we have not spent much if any time discussing premarital sex. When we talk about responsibility, and we frequently do so, I emphasize intent. I encourage students to think about the difference between living “on purpose” and just drifting and going with the flow. I encourage students to pursue freedom through accepting responsibility for their thoughts, feelings, and emotions. They are pretty interested in the freedom part and often confuse freedom with recklessness.
You are right about this being difficult or impossible to teach. How does the quote go? “The most important things can’t be taught”.
My students are sometimes resentful, bored, and project the attitude that they are too cool for any of this stuff. I believe we have this class because many students are clueless when it comes to responsibility. Common courtesy and respect are no longer fashionable. These types of classes are the district’s answer to the complex questions posed by today’s youth. It is not the right answer however. What I see is that the students that are either compliant or respectful and responsible are the ones that show enthusiasm for the content. The “thug types”, are so hard and tough. They project this “my life sucks and you can’t teach me shit” attitude. Very difficult to see any kind of change with them. The schools offer and attempt to teach these kinds of classes. The parents that hold their kids accountable and teach and demand that their kids practice common courtesy or respect are not wanting their kids in these classes. My take is that they see this as a waste of time and they are concerned about an employee of the state presenting these issues in a classroom.
jacksen9, my comment on premarital sex was only an example of how buzzwords like “respect” and “responsibility” can be stretched in so many ways that they are, more or less, meaningless in a classroom setting, and probably will have little to no impact on students.
I couldn’t agree with you more that students should pursue freedom by analyzing their intents and “living on purpose.” I see many of my classmates drifting around, following whatever fads and ideals seem to be prevalent at the time, and it seems to me that this kind of an attitude doesn’t benefit them or their futures in any way. I know it must be frustrating to meet so much resistance, but you will get through to a few of those difficult cases (I’ve seen it happen), and I hope you are able to keep up your enthusiasm.
I’d also like to apologize to Manda Jo for hijacking her thread from teacher priviliges into what should or should not be taught in schools. Oops.
If a restroom is “too filthy” for a teacher to use, or is so overcrowded with people wanting to use it that they cannot get in and out within a class break…doesn’t that suggest that some students might have the same problem as well? Not all schools have the enlightened idea that students can simply “take a pass” and go to the restroom during class-- one of my parent friends was just complaining yesterday that she had had to speak with her middle-school-age daughter’s teacher regarding her child’s “frequent restroom visits” (two visits) when the girl had an unexpectedly heavy period start during the school day.
Certainly MOST teachers have more responsibilities than MOST students-- but I went to school in a small town and a sheltered school, and one of my classmates got to school late every single day because she had to stay home until the nurse arrived, since her terminally ill mother couldn’t be left alone even for ten minutes. I watched kids my own age working to buy groceries, caring for their younger siblings or their own children, and dealing with parents who were abusive, addicted to various things, or just downright unstable. Most of them still managed to show up at school (and I’m aware those were the lucky ones)…but comparing the emotional load of a kid to a fully grown adult with a college degree and the proven ability to find a job-- and no matter what teachers make, yes, it’s terrible, but it’s more than you make 20 hours a week shoveling french fries-- is simply apples and oranges.
No, I don’t know what the solution is. Teachers barely have time to teach, they certainly can’t also be parent substitutes and counselors and psychologists and social workers and they can’t “let someone off” their education because of whatever’s going on at home. That would be totally counterproductive. It just seems like telling the kid in your English class that you get a clean bathroom and a safe parking space because you have so many more responsibilities as a teacher doesn’t cut butter-- if she’s unable to turn in her homework because her mom kept her up all night breaking all the dishes in the house.
It’s broken dishes. When you have to live with people who aren’t always good for you…sometimes you escape by working harder on the things you can…and sometimes you get frustrated by the perceived inequity of it all and give up.
I agree, Corr, the home life of students adds a whole new dimension to teaching. Just this past semester, I threw a birthday party for a girl in class because her mother canceled her party as her friends were arriving because the mother suddenly decided she wanted her boyfriend to come over instead.
I stayed afterschool countless hours because that’s when Marcus’s* mother chose to do “business” at his house. And by business, I mean dealing drugs and prostitution. It wasn’t that she minded him being there. He chose to stay with me… when he wasn’t playing football or wrestling. And you want to know who showed up to his games and matches? Me. You want to know who drove him home after a field trip because his mother refused to come get him at 11:00 P.M.? Me. I only met his mother once when he was suspended until parent conference. I love my job, and I don’t begrudge him one minute of the time I spent with him, but his mother can rot in hell.
Most teachers understand the hardships of a child’s home life. Truly we do. We worry about them 24/7, and we take their problems home with us. I’ve bought underwear, socks, deodorant, soap, and shampoo ad nauseum for kids whose parents would rather spend money on drugs or alcohol. If I insinuated that teachers have a “rougher” time of life than the students, I apologize. I certainly didn’t mean to do that.
I do think, however, that as adults, a clean uncrowded bathroom isn’t too much to ask for…especially considering we only get to go to the bathroom once or twice a day.
actually, i don’t know what you’re all talking about.
i cut in all the time at the canteen line in my last year or so of high school. i’d go round the back, ask them to give me some hot water for my soup/tea/coffee, then ‘while i’m here can i just pick up this and this and this?’