Teacher privileges: useful purpose or product of power hungry degenerates?

In My Humble Opinion
1

This is a spin off of this thread, becasue it raised some issues that interest me but which are a bit more general than that thread suggests.

First, it’s important to know that I am about to be a secondary teacher: I’ve done my student teaching (with ninth graders) and this semester I am substituting 6-12, mostly middle school.

In the linked thread, Chris Luongo complains about teacher privileges. The ones he focuses in on are elevator keys and better parking. I’ve noticed even more: I don’t wait in the lunch line, but cut right to the front, faculty have their own restrooms (collectivly, not individually), and I don’t think anything of having students run errands for me, taking papers to the copy center, returning a book to another teacher, etc. My students address me by my last name, I call them by their first. I may drink a cup of coffee while grading at my desk: students aren’t allowed to have drinks in class.

In the linked thread, Chris Luongo compares a school to a store, and the students to customers. I don’t think this is a valid comparison: I tend to feel that school is its own institution and that it can’t really be subsumed into any other model and expected to conform.

I tend to think that teacher privileges are needed because it is important to maintain a sense of seperation: it’s kind of like the military. Teachers have to give orders, and you cannot run a classrooom if you stop and discuss every single thing: I know, I tried. This conversation repeated a few times:

Teacher: Johnny, please stop talking
Johnny: I wasn’t talking
Teacher: Yes, you were
Johnny: No, I wasn’t
Teacher: We will discuss it after class

destroys learning for the other 29 students in the class. Whether or not Johnny was really talking dosen’t even matter (though I try very hard to be sure before I say such a thing, usually after 15 seconds of glaring has failed to have fixed the problem). Students simply can’t argue with teachers inside a class. Furthermore, they really need to believe that teachers have real authority. Once a kid gets it in their mind that teachers can’t make them do anything (which is, strictly speaking, true), their education is irrecovably compromised. Even though I try and link everything I teach to real-world utitlity, it is sometimes easy to decide you don’t really benefit from schoolwork and that it is ok to do that other thing you really want to do. If students don’t feel they have to work, many of them will chose not to, and it is not 'repsect" to let a fifteen year old decide whether or not he is ever going to need grammar or algebra any more than it is repsect to let a fifteen year old enter into a legal contract.

I don’t know a good word to describe the sort of attitude I am talking about: the idea that you can’t back talk. “Submissive” comes close, but it carries a lot of baggage that I don’t like: I don’t mean submissive in terms of allowing abuse, or that the submissive person is less worthy or something. But there does need to be a clear attitude that the teacher is in charge in the classroom. Teachers must be seen as diffferent than students, not just bigger. They can tell you what to do: you can’t tell them.

It seems to me that most institutions where there is such an attitude use varying levels of privileges to help maintain this difference. The army does it, private companies do it (your boss is Mr. Smith, you and your co-workers are Fred and Suzie and James. Your boss’s boss has reserved parking by the door). Now, “It’s always been that way” is not proof that something is the best way in and of itself, but it is evidence that such systems may serve a functional purpose.

So, to sum up, I think that the sorts of teacher privileges listed here do serve a useful purpose in the school: there needs to be a sense of seperation. Furthermore, I don’t think that seperation has to be demeaning: I don’t think that treating a child like a child in an insult. But I suspect this is something there is a great variety of opinion on and I am more than open to being convinced that I am wrong.

2

When I was in elementary school and Jr High the type of priviliages you mention not only make sense, but were right. Afterall, when things are said and done, teachers are adults, and I was a child, and children don’t get to do everything adults can.
However, by the time I got into high school, little tihngs started to get on my nerves. I mean, I have the same amount of lunchtime as my teachers, why do they get to make me wait longer? I was no longer a child…by my senior year I was legally an adult. It was an insult to continue to treat me as a child, especially since I was just months away from getting married and moving 200 miles away from home. It was also demeaning my Jr year, because when you are 17 you are no longer a child, but you aren’t really an adult either. I was expected to act mature and like an adult, but as far as school was concerned, I was still treated like a child.

I guess what I’m saying is, teacher privilages at an elementary or Jr. High level is perfectly acceptable. However, at a high school level, I think certain things may be inappropriate.

3

Having been a teacher for 10 years (about 15 years ago), I have to say that you are most certainly not wrong. Although I was in a private trade school, so the students really were my customers.

Teachers & students are not, and never should be peers. All of the little odd jobs that you mention help to reinforce the necessary difference in elevation (of status) between teacher & student.

Instead of “submissive”, try “obedient” or even “dutiful”. Virtually identical in this context but “obedient” conveys with it a virtuous image.

At the K-12 levels, teachers should (IMHO) be role models for their students. It’s also their duty to maintain a level of respect & decorum in the classroom. It certainly doesn’t hurt to be bigger :wink:

4

The word you are looking for is subordinate (I think).

If Chris wants to compare a school to a store, I’d compare a school to a factory. The customers are the taxpayers (or maybe society at large). Students are the raw materials. The product is educated people.

There is no reason for a school to treat students like customers. Can’t park at Target, you’ll go down the street to Wal-Mart. Can’t park at school? Tough, you have an obligation to be there anyway - parking is a perk - one that costs taxpayers money and is often abused by students.

Now, students are also people and therefore deserve to be treated with respect. But showing respect does not equal providing parking or the keys to the elevator.

5

In high school, I had a teacher who twice made appointments with me to discuss my work in his class. Twice, he didn’t show. And it was his idea.

That’s downright rude. No one should be rude to anyone, regardless of status. Can you imagine if he had shown up and I hadn’t? Probably an automatic F.

6

I have to disagree with the original op. Not completely though. I think the important thing here is that the kids get educated and not so much priviliges.

Keep in mind kids in middle school through high school are rebelious by nature; this probably being a direct result of hormones kicking into gear. I say as a teacher and as an adult for that matter you should be the bigger person and come down to their level. (some what)

I say we show these kids what its like in the real word. i.e. if you do well in school, try hard and behave in a professional maner than said students should be aloted certian privilrges that the bad ones don’t. And the whole “name thing” is a respectalbilty issue as well; ever ask your self why typicaly kids get along better with their pe teacher than they do the rest? Well basicaly its because in most schools kids refer to their pe teacher as “coach” which makes the child feel less threatened. And when kids feel like they are being respected and listened to they are more apt to learn.

7

**Attrayant, **I have to respectfully disagree with this. The function of teachers is to provide an education to students, and to allow them to develop the type of rational and analytic faculties that are required to function in the real world. Sometimes, supplying these things requires that the teacher keep behavior under control, but only to allow the students to learn. A teacher forcing students to do little jobs for them not only detracts from the time which that student spends learning, but also smacks of petty control-freak behavior.

Regarding the first name/last name issue: I don’t like to think of calling my teachers Mr. or Mrs. X as a sign of subordination or even respect so much as it is a sign of separation. Though most of my teachers are perfectly decent people, I like for them to stay in their little boxes, and remain entirely separate from my life. I realize admitting that I don’t respect a few of my teachers is likely to raise some hackles, but it is the truth. They’re human, and certainly aren’t infallible. Being told that gays and lesbians are “sick” etc tends to diminish one’s respect for someone, or at least in my case.

I agree that teachers and students shouldn’t be peers, but in a few cases I think the relationship can be quite a bit less formal without any ill effects. For example, I spend a half-day at a small, regional center of a larger school (The Oklahoma School of Science and Math, for any okies out there) and only have three classmates, plus four in the class during the other half of the day. We’re all 17-18, and my calc teacher is 28. The age difference isn’t great, and we all spend three hours a day together, which breeds familiarity. Thursday is our last day, and we’re having an end-of-year barbecue at the teacher’s house to celebrate. A cook-out at a teacher’s house is certainly more friendly than the norm, but it hasn’t affected our academic performance.

8

my guess is that teachers get extra privileges because they work there. they’re the ones who keep the whole operation running smoothly, there the ones who are probly going to be photocopying or marking or doing playground duty in their break; it’s not entirely unreasonable to expect they get a few perks with the job.

of course, that is not to say that students should shuffle around attempting to remain as discreet as possible so they don’t get in any of the teachers’ way. but really, aren’t there more important things that you could be changing in the school system than who gets to park where, who gets to use the elevator, or whether you address a teacher by their first or last name?

of course, there are asshole teachers that abuse the priveleges their position gives them, (for instance, rilchiam’s teacher who couldn’t keep appointments) but you’ll find these in any profession.

i think, when encountering these teachers, it is important to remember the words of the great ferris bueller:

9

Why does Mrs. Kunilou get to go to the front of the cafeteria line? Because she’s also expected to pull cafeteria or playground duty, and if she’s not doing that, she’s in her classroom either grading papers or meeting with parents/students.

Why does Mrs. Kunilou get to have a student run a note down to the office instead of taking it there herself? Because she’s also responsible for the 20 other students in the room at that time.

Why does Mrs. Kunilou get an elevator key. She doesn’t. The elevator is used for freight. Only the handicapped who can’t take the stairs are allowed keys to the elevator.

Why does Mrs. Kunilou get to park next to the school? Because she gets there at 6:45 in the morning and seldom leaves before 5:30 at night.

Want the perks? Then do the work associated with them.

10

You’re in quite a unique situation then. OSSM is an elite institution for exceptional students. I think in this situation, the cookout is quite appropriate.

But, I think it’s a far different situation in a class of 25, a good number of whom have the attitude and sense of entitlement that makes them think they should have front-row parking and elevator keys.

Teachers get these small perqs because they often spend their own (way-too-low) salary on their classes. My mom, two of my aunts, and their mother were all elementary teachers, and a trip to Thompsons (Edmond Okies know what I’m talking about) was paid for by a personal check, not a district purchase order. Teachers also get these perqs because, well, they’re teachers. They’ve earned them by taking a crappy job for crappy pay because they want to change the world.

11

I do not like double standards. I think teachers should wait in the lunch line, just like the students. I avoid buying lunch for this reason. It irks me that lunches aren’t administered more efficiently. We have just under 3,000 students yet they don’t open all the cashier stations. Aramark banks and part of it has to do with this way of conducting business.
Our school requires students to wear ID badges. Teachers have been issued ID badges, yet many do not wear them. I have seen teachers without their ID badge write demerits to students for the same reason. This sends the wrong message. We require the badge so we can discern which people belong in the building and which ones don’t. Adults should be required to wear an ID as well as the students.
As for running errands, I ask students to be a runner on occasion. They seem to enjoy an opportunity to get out and up and around.
The comment about students as customers: I do think of it this way. So often my students do not buy what I am selling. I have even used this analogy with my students - each day you come to school with x amount of money. Some of you buy what is being sold and some of you go home with all of your money in your pockets. But here is the catch - your job is to spend your money, in fact the more you spend the more you get.
However you look at it, it boils down to relevance. I struggle with this issue daily. What I think is important and what they think is important is so vastly different.
Popular thoughts regarding respect also irk me. One teacher has a poster in her room that says something like “you have to earn respect”. This is only partially true. I respect people and I am respectful of people because of who I am, not who they are. I think this is important for students to see.
Separation - WOW. I want connection instead. I think I can be most effective if I am able to establish a connection with my students. Naturally, there should be some degree of separation and I do not want students too feel too comfortable or familiar. I think the master teachers are able to find the right way to be personable and respected. But these are based on relationships not entitlement or position.

12

I don’t HAVE to wait in the lunch line with the students, but I usually do, just because I feel a bit weird cutting in. That being said, if I am running late, I will cut in line, and I believe I have every right to. Teachers don’t have to justify the different standards applied to them; they are adults, and the students are not. It’s as simple as that.

I don’t have to ask anyone permission to leave the room. I can use the copier without being charged 5 cents. I can go to the bathroom marked “Teachers.” This doesn’t make me power-hungry; all of these privileges are to make my job more efficient and effective. Plus, I’m not a minor.

People make WAY too big of a stink about the rights of students.

13

Amen. I hate getting to work in the dark at 6:40 A.M. It’s creepy. I’m always glad on carpool days because I figure if I get raped, I won’t get raped alone.

14

Amen to that as well. The other day, a student of mine was suspended for complaining about stomach pains. I’m sure that wasn’t the reason, but that was her story. She wanted me to feel sorry for her. My response was, “Everbody gets ripped sometime. It’s just your turn.”
Speaking of faculty bathrooms, a student asked me today, “Why don’t you use the student restroom? It’s closer.”

Because student bathrooms are filthy, not because the janitors don’t clean them, but because the students themselves are filthy. Plus, I like soap. The janitors put soap in the student bathrooms. It just winds up God-knows-where. I get the luxury of soap because teachers are responsible enough to know how to use it.

15

Okay, let me try another analogy.

Everywhere you go, whether for business or pleasure, each and every person you deal with has two duties. His first duty is his job or his relationship to you or whatever, and the second duty is to be kind of a miniature policeman.

If you go to the corner store to buy a candy bar, the clerk’s main job is to help you find the candy bar you want, and then ring you up for it. His ancillary duties might include: making sure you don’t steal the candy bar, making sure you don’t burn the store down, making sure you don’t assault other customers… and so on.

Just like the corner store clerk, all school faculty (not just teachers) certainly have the right to ensure that all of the basic rules are followed. If a student calls the teacher names, or disrupts the class, or vandalizes the school, then the faculty has the right (and duty) to take disciplinary action.

On the other hand, treating students as being less important, and less deserving than the faculty breeds contempt, not respect. And it does lead to some other unforseen problems.

At my school, the restrooms were filthy, cold, and had no hot water, soap, or paper towels. Why? Because the complaints of students are always easily ignored. However, if they forced everyone, right up to the principal, to use the same restroom, I assure you, they’d have that place cleaned up in no time.

Since my school was downtown, I regularly ate lunch at one of the many good restaurants and pizza joints there, or I went home to eat and then returned, so I never got to witness any faculty cutting in line. If I had seen such offensive behavior, there would have been quite a scene!

The fact that faculty won’t use a student restroom all but proves that said restrooms are unfit for use. Same thing with the lunchlines; they shouldn’t be so lenghty that one would ever consider cutting in line.

And the overused “hard job/too many duties/low pay” line does not justify such unethical behavior as line-cutting. If the job is so demanding that there’s’ barely enough time to grab lunch, this should be brought to the attention of the “boss” or teachers union, rather than being used as an excuse to gain an unfair advantage at another’s expense.

16

Chris, the big problem with this is that fora sizable portion of the student body, there isn’t any disciplinary action you can take. Detention? They just don’t show up. In-School suspension? It’s no different than class. Can’t attend/participate in extra-curricular activites? They don’t anyway. It’s what I call the Great Bluff: go back to where I talked about how it’s the simple truth that a teacher can’t make a kid do anything, not one single thing, and once a kid realizes that, there is a very good chance that they have shot themselves in the foot. All these differences, in my opinion, funtion to obscure the fact that the only power teachers have over students is that of tradition.

Ha. Ha ha ha. Teacher’s union. Oh, man, this part is funny. Teacher, espcially middle school and down, have no lunch break. There is a time when you eat, but even as you eat, you have to sit where you can see your kids, get up, go over, and break up potential fights/other disruptions, make sure your kids are all there, and afterwards get them all up, the tables cleaned, and get them out the door together. And you have a total of 20-23 minutes. And this is your job: you’d get about as far complaining about this as a nurse would complaining about having to clean up vomit.

No, these things shouldn’t be this way. And every teacher ought to have a master’s degree from an ivy league school and kids ought to all come from homes where learning is valued. Unfortunantly, schools have to work with what they have, and often that isn’t muc. The $20,000 a year for an extra lunch lady buys a lot of new books for the library: school principals have to make a great number of diffucult choices like that. And, in my experience, Faculty restrooms often as not end up being outfitted by faculty: one of the few advantages to tenure is that a teacher who knows she is going to be in a building for twenty years is more likely to invest in air freshener and TP upgrades. Students are certainly welcome t orginize their own collectives.

First, I want to point out that many intitutions have systems that both serve a useful purpose and cause problems: everything is a cost/benefit analysis. I think the big issue here is to what degree is calling someone by there first name and insisting you are called by your last a case of "treating students as being less important, and less deserving " and to what degree is it just establishing that there is a very signifigant difference in authority? And is it possible to run a class of 30 students without being able to tell someone to be quiet and not let them defend themselves?

17

Stofsky, I agree with you completely here. I don’t think I addressed the entire OP well. I see teachers as entitled to small perks like elevator keys and separate parking. What I do, however, take issue with is the attitudes of some teachers that students can be used like hired help to run errands and do other jobs.

I agree with you to a certain extent. Separation can be maintained (with balance) by a personable teacher, inside the context of the classroom and academics only. What I object to is the insertion of a teacher into my personal life as it is outside of school, while I’m in class. I certainly do not appreciate the morality lectures from my Spanish teacher, and if I hear one more discussion about “family values” or am subjected to another glurge-filled Hallmark-wannabe bit of prose I will very likely pull an Exorcist and projectile vomit all over the markerboard.

Shrew, like you are, I’m absolutely sure that the girl wasn’t suspended for complaining about stomach pains. However, I think your comment was miles away from being appropriate. Few other things you could have said would have come across as more condescending, and I doubt that anything else would have promoted apathy and cynicism quite as much. A little more bluntly might have been: “Adults will screw you over, and you might as well get used to it. Now shut up and bring me a drink from the lounge.” A stunning fact is that many of us do, actually, know that the world isn’t fair and that bad things happen - this doesn’t mean that it doesn’t chap our asses. There’s nothing quite like an authority figure treating you as if you’re undeserving of respect and fairness to destroy whatever trust in adults one has.

18

Seriously? Military aside, I’ve never heard of any workplace where the employees don’t call their bosses by their first names. (Certainly nowhere I’ve worked and nowhere my friends have worked.)

On preview, I wonder: Is this an American thing?

Sorry for the little hijack. Interesting teacher/student discussion, btw.

19

I don’t know Narrad…I’m American and have always called my American bosses by their first names. Upon first meeting them or writing, I always defer to the polite “Mr.” or “Ms.” but everyone says “just call me Fred” or “Nancy” or whatever…

As to the OP, there’s really nothing I can disagree with. I don’t see why teachers cutting in line or having parking spaces or whatnot should be a problem. You have to be kidding me. As for in-classroom discipline, well, from my experience it’s all a delicate balance of being firm and fair, keeping some distance in the student-teacher relation, and having a good, extroverted personality that students can somewhat identify with. The best teachers in my high school were fair discpilinarians, but also had a knack for being funny, quirky and jovial. They gave us just enough common ground to foster a true sense of respect. Teachers who tried to be pals out-and-out with the students often didn’t fare as well, though the honors classes I was in were much calmer than the other classes. Teachers who were perceived as effete were trounced upon and taken advantage of. Teachers who were militant disciplinarians with drill sergreant tactics and styrofoam personalities were universily vilified. You gotta keep up the morale of the troops, ya know.

I respect teachers…it’s a very difficult balancing act. In the real world, executives get privaleges regular employees don’t. So why not teachers?

20

**I agree with you to a certain extent. Separation can be maintained (with balance) by a personable teacher, inside the context of the classroom and academics only. What I object to is the insertion of a teacher into my personal life as it is outside of school, while I’m in class. I certainly do not appreciate the morality lectures from my Spanish teacher, and if I hear one more discussion about “family values” or am subjected to another glurge-filled Hallmark-wannabe bit of prose I will very likely pull an Exorcist and projectile vomit all over the markerboard. **

I can understand your frustration. The curriculum my class is based on includes topics such as family, values, character, leadership. etc. Some students contribute significantly and seem to enjoy the class. Many students seem uninterested and some seem sickened by these teaching points.
We were discussing privacy issues this week. My journal question was - “Where does responsible parenting end and invasion of privacy begin?” We then broadened the topic and talked about increased security and safety measures and how this results in some loss of privacy. Drug testing came up. One student said that if he were a parent and he suspected his child was smoking pot, he would get high with them.
If you were a teacher, how would you address this attitude? We did an assignment that required students to write a mission satatement. One of the lead-up activities asked students to discuss / write about their values. I was floored by the number of students that did not understand the terms…values, principles, ethics.
Should educators ignore these issues? I ask because I struggle with this. I find it very difficult to make the content interesting and meaningful. I see the need for this but I am wondering how I can do this better. I have fewer ah ha moments than I want. I work at being entertaining and charismatic yet sincere.

Also…it would not be a big deal to me for students to call me by my first name. I introduce myself by last name so … When I talk to parents, I sometimes leave off the last name. I really do not want to be viewed as a student equal. I think this would invite some problems. My role is that of a teacher, not friend.
As for being personable… the trick is to be sincere and interesting, interested…but not nosey, judgemental, or aloof. This process will look different with different students. I do not hesitate to keep a student after class for a second to ask them if there is anything wrong. Usually, this question will not produce any real information, but sometimes it does. I do not pretend to be able to fix anything. One of my students told me once…the more people I talk to, the more problems I have. Her mom is a herion addict btw.
I am going on and on here…but basically my philosophy is that you should teach the kid first and the content second. I do not want to distribute information as much as I want to help students become “meaning-makers”.
IM SO LATE!!! OUT.