Tell me I'm not lame because I want to be married

[Gyrate]

A few items from your post:

*Originally posted by MsWhatsit *
I asked him why he feels okay buying a house with me but not getting married. He said that while buying a house with me is also scary and intimidating, it’s also something that he really really wants for himself and for us. OK, that’s not entirely fair to me (“I’m willing to overcome my fear of commitment but only for something I really want”) but I’m willing to deal with it.

Why is that not fair? Would it be okay for him to marry you even if it wasn’t something he “really wanted”? I’m sure that’s not quite how you meant it, but you might want to have another look at what you’ve written.

has he been married or engaged before?

Nope. He was in one long-term relationship before, but it ended quite badly. No previous engagements or marriages.

Ah. So he may be looking at this from the point of view of “My last relationship was looking pretty good at this point too, and it tanked – maybe I’d better wait and make sure this one is going to work before I get in deeper.” Just a thought.

Well, as I said, we’ve discussed buying a house together. We often talk about what we would hypothetically do if we had kids, although he says he’s not sure he will want kids. He often says things like, “We’re a team!” and “We’re good partners” and “I will always be here for you”, etc. I would say that there is a good level of commitment in the relationship. Just not rock-solid commitment, in my opinion. (Or in my mind, at least.)

As I said above, just you’re ready now doesn’t mean he should be ready now too, and just because he’s not ready now doesn’t mean he never will be. All I can say is: as long as you can talk frankly to one another, things shouldn’t go too badly wrong.

Eh, I don’t know. Life is hard, dammit! Nobody told me there were going to be all these, you know, decisions!

I hear that.

[dublos]

*Originally posted by MsWhatsit *
Except…he doesn’t want to get married. He says “it just doesn’t feel right” and is basically unable to tell me why it doesn’t feel right.

MsWhatsit

This seems to be the crux of the problem. If his reasons are the “right” reasons, this is likely fine and dandy and doesn’t mean a single negative thing about your relationship. As he can’t articulate those reasons (and if he’s just listening to his gut instinct, he may not even know what those reasons are) there is no way you can feel truly comfortable with that.

This sounds like a good time for one or more quiet sit down conversations that don’t center around “I need you to tell me why?” and instead center around “I need you to get inside your own head and understand why so that you can eventually tell me.” A subtle difference, but a difference. And you need to be prepared for some completely irrational fears, that may have absolutely nothing to do with you or with your relationship that are hanging out there and leaving him feeling this way.

Do not let yourself get wrapped up in this to the point that the reason(s) it just doesn’t feel right must reflect something about you or your relationship he’s not satisfied with. He could be deleriously happy with you and the relationship (and it sounds like he is) and still have something unrelated stuck back in his subconcious giving him this message.

So communicate at whatever pace is comfortable for you both, but make clear that being able to communicate what creates a disagreement is part of what makes a relationship stronger, so you are willing to take the time to try, and you are willing to be patient enough for him to be able to express it.

-Doug

[astro]

*Originally posted by MsWhatsit *
**
Well, that’s the kicker. You’d expect this waffling around to come from someone in his 20s, but my boyfriend is 36 years old. Yes, 36. I’m 24. I’ve asked him if the age difference is part of what’s bothering him, and he swears that 1) it isn’t, and that 2) he rarely thinks about my age except to feel proud of having such a “young, hot girlfriend”. (“Oh, so you’re just using me for sex, eh?” “No! That’s not what I meant!” “Uh-huh.”)
**

I know it’s hard but love will find a way. When he is ready to join together with you the time will feel right and you’ll both know when that is. At 24 you’ve got a lot more living to do. Enjoy life for what it is and don’t worry so much about words on a piece of paper. His feelings for you are more important.

[Tygr]

Hoo, boy. I know I’ll probably get lit up like a Christmas tree for what I’m about to say, but I’m still gonna say it because it’s important.

MrWhatsit is going to leave you. The little voice in your head isn’t wrong. Why? Because he has no compelling reason to stay. The minute your relationship gets not-so-much-fun-anymore, he’s gonna be right out the door.

Think that’s not so? Tell him tonight that your “just not ready” to have sex with him. Say that every night for six months and see if he sticks around.

I know this sounds harsh, but you need some cold water thrown in your face. Because there’s a real possibility that you will get pregnant sometime soon. At that point you will want the security of a vow that he has made to you that will tell you he will always be there.

You’ve shown up on the SDMB and that displays an above-average intelligence. Time to put it to use. Stop arguing yourself away from your instincts. He’s 36 and you’re 24. There’s only a certain number of reasons a 36 year old man wants to co-habitate with a 24 year old woman. Love could be one of those reasons, but then why not just high-tail it down to the Justice of the Peace and make it official? He’s got his own reasons for hanging out with you and you’ll never know what those really are.

You’ve tried to pin him down and get just what his intentions are and he’s hedged every time. He’s said he’ll always be with you. Great! Then what’s stopping him from making it official? Based on what he’s said, nothing’s stopping him. So you have to look at what he does to find his real reasons.

You might be inferring that I have a low opinion of this guy. You’re right. That will most likely make you angry with me and I can accept that.

But PLEASE don’t let that discount what I’m saying.

Your guy is six years older than I am, but is displaying less maturity than you are. You’ve been together for several years, you think you know him pretty well, but you STILL don’t understand why he’s putting his desires above your needs (yes, you NEED (and deserve) a “rock-solid commitment” for your own peace of mind). The man is selfish. He treats you nice, listens to your conversations, buys you nice things, but when when it comes to nitty-gritty, rubber hits the road, step up to the mark and do the right thing time, he pulls up short and runs screaming “I’m just not READY!”.

He’s not near good enough for you. Even more important, he’s NO-WAY near good enough to be a father to the children you two will eventually have. Not until he changes his tune and decides to display a high quantity of good character.

You need to move out. Dump him and spend your mid-twenties affirming to yourself those things YOU KNOW are right to look for in a man. That is what those years are for.

…and since you asked, I’m on the cusp of thirty. I’ve been married to a wonderful woman for three years after we dated for three years before that. I do know that marriage is better than any alternative, take it from someone who has the experience to know it. It is a deeper level of trust and understanding than someone who is single will ever know. (At least it’s supposed to be.) And that level only comes when you are with someone who gives you no reason to doubt that your needs and desires will ALWAYS come before his.

I hope I’ve given you reason to pause for thought. If not, well, please flame my e-mail, rather than here.

[RTFirefly]

1. Mutual trust and respect.

2. Shared values/worldview/goals/approach to life.
   (I know, that covers a lot of ground. It’s a big bundle, but it’s still one bundle.)

3. A genuine enjoyment of each other’s company.

I’m not willing to go as far out on a limb as my friend Tygr. But I’m listening to your story, MsWhatsit, and thinking about item #2 on my list, and I must admit to a certain level of concern.

The two of you seem to have very different underlying approaches to life. You see the current level of your relationship as a means to an end; he sees it as an end in itself. Nothing wrong with either approach; it’s just fundamentally different. It’s the difference between those who want to have an idea of where they’re going over the long run, and those who are quite happy to not worry about tomorrow until it arrives.

You’re 24, and already considering the vast reaches of time ahead, and what it’s going to look like - whether you’re going to spend it with him, whether you’re going to have kids, and so forth. You’re ready to make decisions and make plans, including decisions and plans about the two of you - a very reasonable place to be after five years of seeing each other, including nearly two of living together.

He’s 36, and despite the time together, hasn’t yet gotten to that point. Not just with you, it seems, but I’m hearing that it’s more or less across the board. He’s willing to talk about kids in generalities - but by 36, you’d think he’d have clear ideas about whether he wanted to have 'em or not. Or if he’s still unsure, his reservations should at least have a clear-cut shape by now.

If he were thinking about the years to come. But it doesn’t sound like he is. Nothing wrong with that - but it’s hard to see how you and he are going to make it together.

I disagree with Tygr - it may be that he never leaves you. But if so, it’ll always be like it is, I suspect - a likelihood of his continuing to be there in the near-term future, but never any certainty about the long haul. That will get old after awhile.

If you want my advice, hold off on the house. Give the relationship another year, if you’re so inclined. But if he isn’t ready by then to make a deeper commitment to you than a tattoo, it’s time to leave him and find someone who loves you and approaches the world a bit more like the way you do.

[sub]FWIW, I was 35 when I proposed to Mrs. F., who was then 24. Not that that matters, really.[/sub]

[C3]

MsWhatsit - I was in your position about 4 years ago. I had been living with my (now) husband for a few years, dating awhile before that. I wanted to get married; he said he “wasn’t ready” and didn’t know if he’d ever be ready. Then he finally said he wanted to get engaged. Then he changed his mind and said he didn’t. After a million heart-to-heart, gut-wrenching conversations about where our relationship was going, I gave up. I told him I wanted to be married to him. I also told him if that wasn’t going to happen, then I needed to stop wasting my time. I didn’t want to leave him, but I didn’t want to stay in a relationship that, to me, felt incomplete.

I left it alone after that. I meant what I said about leaving and started making preparations. This wasn’t a game to get him to do something I wanted him to do. There was no crying, pleading, or anything like that…I just knew what I wanted and recognized that he was unable or unwilling to give it to me. When he had a chance to think about it without it being a “discussion”, he decided that what he did want is for us to always be together. So, he made that happen by asking me to marry him.

I’m not saying to give your boyfriend an ultimatum with the intent of pressuring him into making a decision. I am saying that if the relationship is not everything you need, get out and try somewhere else. There’s the possibility that you’ll still be able to work things out in a way that suits both of you. If not, you’ll find someone who’s also wonderful who is able to give you the relationship that suits you best.

Don’t settle for less than what you want, though.

[Guinastasia]

I want to get married when I find my dream man. He’ll be tall, dashing, handsome and mysterious, he’ll sweep me off my feet, and treat me like a princess. Er…something.
Seriously, I want a major romance. Is that SO FUCKING WRONG???

[astro]

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
**I want to get married when I find my dream man. He’ll be tall, dashing, handsome and mysterious, he’ll sweep me off my feet, and treat me like a princess. Er…something.
Seriously, I want a major romance. Is that SO FUCKING WRONG???
**

No. It’s not wrong at all. You should get roses from Mr. TDH&M. You deserve roses and lilies. Women who have this expectation generally get what they want if they are charming enough.

[Jkayla]

Well, I am Mrs. Tygr. I haven’t been out here for a while, but Tygr brought up your post.

Two people I know had similar experiences:

1. My cousin was living with a man who was a few yrs older for about 3 years. She wanted marriage and baby. He didn’t. He wasn’t ready. She moved out and he moved on to a new relationship, resulting in marriage and a baby. My cousin is now married also. Her first step resulted in their best interest. She will always love him but they were not meant to be.

2. A friend was living with her boyfriend. Some discomfort with the lack of commitment that marriage provides came up. He wasn’t ready for that. She moved out, but they kept dating. A few months later he proposed. They were married a year later and now have a baby girl. They are one of the happiest couples now. He realized how much she meant and how much he wanted her in his life very quickly when she was not there so readily.

It is a deeper level of trust and understanding than someone who is single will ever know. (At least it’s supposed to be.) And that level only comes when you are with someone who gives you no reason to doubt that your needs and desires will ALWAYS come before his.

So, here is the thing. Like my sweety said, marriage is another level of commitment. We had already promised ourselves to one another and said we would grow old together. We did move in together for a year after that discussion started and before he proposed. It was to help him while he worked full time and went to school actually. He went to school so he could start a new career to support a family. A serious sign of commitment. I would have moved out if I heard what you were told from my man.

My tygr does have a strong opinion on this. And realize, he had some commitment issues when we first dated, but he got past them (before we lived together). He wanted to be with me forever.

I would not feel comfortable in your situation. I seriously question his validity. Perhaps Tygr is right, but if you care as much as you sound like you do, maybe he is worth another effort. I would definitely not buy any large items (house) together. He would then have everything he needs/wants without a legal commitment (until you get to common law marriage years). I knew a guy that broke up with a girl a few months before they would be common law married.

Here is a middle of the road suggestion: think about/discuss the idea of living separately and dating for a while. This would allow space for thought and for feelings to come out. Maybe that would be conducive to him figuring out his emotions.

I probably wouldn’t wait a whole year to see if he is going to marry you or not, but if you truly love him and completely trust him and feel trust and love from him, then by all means figure out your own time limits on that item. But move out and don’t spend every night with him. Let him have space and see how things go.

I hope something works out. Ultimately, you and he have to settle this issue, but hopefully the advice from the people on the boards will help prompt thoughts for you and maybe other readers.

Also, keep in mind, it is better that you both want to invest emotionally into marriage and are not talked into it. Make sure you have other goals together.

[Cyndar]

He’s 36? You’re not giving me much hope for the future.
Michi (31 and single and wishing very much for a man to marry…)

[MsWhatsit]

Dublos, that’s the best advice I’ve heard on this topic probably ever. I am thinking of printing out your post and taping it to my office wall.

Tygr, I also appreciate your advice, although I am not going to take it. I know you mean well and are trying to help. However, I think you have misread my situation. First of all, my instincts are not telling me to break up with this guy, they’re telling me to stay because I have a good thing here. Second, if I were to tell him no sex for six months or more, I strongly doubt he’d break up with me. Why? Because I did just that during one of our “off-again” segments, and he continued to love me and want to be with me. He’s a good man who happens to have some commitment issues.

That having been said, I would like to thank EVERYONE in this thread, Tygr included, for helping me think through some things regarding my relationship. This is truly an amazing group of people gathered together here on these boards.

As I’m sure all of you can tell, I am feeling much better about this than I was a couple days ago, mostly thanks to you guys. Thanks again, I do appreciate it.

[handy]

Im sure there are plenty of guys on the board who would marry you in a New York minute

[lurkernomore]

*Originally posted by Cyndar *
**He’s 36? You’re not giving me much hope for the future.
Michi (31 and single and wishing very much for a man to marry…) **

Michi,

      As a guy, my advice is don't look too desperate. Run at us too hard, we run away.

…and those FL guys are idiots for passing you up. Would’ve been nice to have met you at Largo when I was visiting.