My dad’s parents lived off-grid in southern Oregon in the 1960s-1990s. They had a huge propane tank for their stoves and Servel gas refrigerators. They also had an old-fashioned wood-burning kitchen stove they used every day. Grandpa had two or three generators. One was powered by an old WIllys jeep engine, but the one I remember him using was like a 5 hp Briggs & Stratton or something. The generator provided 110 v to the house. When it ran out of gas, it was time for bed. Otherwise, the house was wired for 12 v so that they could stay up later and have lights.
As long as I’m on the subject of my grandparent’s place, they got water from a spring uphill that fed into a tank that fed into the house. They had a septic tank for toilets and grey water. In addition to the wood stove in the kitchen, they had a wood-burning stove in the living room (kind of like the one in the kitchen), and a fireplace.
I see that some of what I said didn’t come across the way I intended. The first part where I talked about log cabins, cloth tents, next generations, and hand-digging wells was intended as an example of one end of a spectrum of possibilities, one that I know you’ve already ruled out. But I get the impression that many of the suggestions revolve around that same line of thinking, plus most videos you’ll find of off-grid living are young people wanting to start from scratch. I meant to convey that I think you should avoid that entirely.
Wood-cutting and heating was intended to include the middle ground between the two extremes. I live in an area with dozens of lifetimes worth of free standing dead wood from a recent fire, and lots of guys with nothing else to do but make a few bucks on the weekends selling firewood. I can buy it cheaper across the street than cutting it on my own property. The same might be true where you are, but you have to look.
You don’t need to be a 35 year-old mountain man old to cut wood any more than you do to lift weights in a gym. Cut the logs to 3 feet long instead of 10. Pick up the 20 lb dumbell instead of the 50 lb one. Also, you’ll want some sort of physical activity to do as you get older. This activity can be scaled down very easily, or hired out cheap if it’s actually too much. And if you can’t manage to move a dozen pieces of firewood per day, you’re not going to be able to lift the jerry can to fuel up the skidoo, nor be able to pick up and shift one end of it over when you get stuck in that impassible snow-in.
I’ve done all these things; it’s not a matter of being youthful enough to power through any given task in 10 minutes. Take 2 hours to do it and you’ll be surprised what even an old body can do. If you believe you’ll be fit and active enough to jump on a snowmobile once a year and power yourself through 10 miles of snowdrifts that emergency services and heavy equipment can’t penetrate, then you can handle cutting a little wood. When the snow is that bad, you’ll need far more hip and back strength and flexibility to maneuver a 650-lb snow machine through numerous awkward positions than to maneuver a 2-lb hatchet.
About the camp system… No I didn’t mean take decades to set it up, I meant set it up - quick and easy in weeks - for a couple decades of use. I also see that I assumed you’d look at the photos in detail. My bad there. If you look at them all you’ll see where the units are manufactured, what their snow ratings are, etc. These units are made for Canadian winters, right now it’s -26 C where I am, and thousands of people are sleeping in them tonight quite comfortably and their sinks will work in the morning. They are better insulated and engineered than you may assume.
All you need to do is build a simple wood ramp for access; that’s something you can do yourself. I bought a pre-fab set of wood stairs for a handicap person a few years ago; $430 for custom measurements. My dad built a simple 4-foot outdoor elevator for my mother who couldn’t even fit in a wheel chair years ago using angle iron and an electric winch for under $1,500. Very simple things to accomplish.
You said you had an easy water source that you don’t need to worry about. If you don’t, then buy a $300 plastic poly tank for your pickup and fill up the built-in water storage tanks in the modules from somewhere else over the weekend a few times a year (yes I’ve done exactly that; my previous house had terrible quality drinking water with high sodium so I just trucked it in from 45 minutes away myself for 12 years with a half-ton). Use the rain or lake water for everything else. You don’t need a septic system if you just store and haul your waste water. Camps housing thousands of workers (plus thousands of RV livers) are doing this today. If you do have a system, you’ll need the solids pumped out and a way to get a service truck in anyway.
You’ll need a power source no matter what type of house you choose. A modular system offers the advantage of being (almost) ready to just plug into whatever system you choose vs months of starting from scratch with your own house wiring and light bulbs etc… If the propane tank isn’t big enough then bring in 2 or 3. Or one bigger one. Yes, you store your long-term supplies on site. That’s what remote living is; I’m not sure you fully understand that. It’s a little ugly, hence my recommendation to plan the site out so it looks more rustic instead of industrial. Industrial works, rustic feels nicer. YMMV.
And the construction and weathering materials, and the base/foundation, and the plumbing, and the insulation, and the interior components and layout, and the ability to have it hauled in over the weekend, and the other 95% you’re ignoring, plus all the engineering and certifications to ensure it will work and the decades of tested use with hundreds of thousands of workers. Maybe that means nothing to some. I’d trust in something proven. I don’t really care; invest your money where you think it’s smartest.
I’m seriously scratching my head here… have you actually lived off-grid or needed to drive a skidoo for any distance to access remote property in the winter? I’ve done both. If your house access is so bad you need a snow machine to get out then you’ll not be hauling in or out any significant amount of supplies over drifts that a 4x4 can’t pass. I’ve owned a snow machine for years; they are great for surfing over rough terrain and hauling a bit of cargo when there is no other option. But they’ll sit idle in the garage for 9 months a year while a simple quad will work year-round to keep your access to the nearest ploughed road clear as long as you plough the snow once a week.
I can only assume from this you’re not interested in understanding what those costs actually are; as part of my job I pay for that “very, very expensive” transportation regularly. I’m trying to fight ignorance but if you want to stick to a preconceived believe that only rich companies can afford something like $750 to rig, pick up, secure, then climb a 200-foot dirt trail hill and relocate a 40-foot 8-ton trailer 10 miles away then ok. That’s what I paid privately 3 years ago when I moved up here. I also paid the same oilfield service company under $8,000 to move 2-house-hold’s of goods 600 miles in 2 shipping containers. The owner was happy for the business and asked if he could use my video on his business website. These are not Saudi-King-only services.
I’ve signed invoices for helicopters to drop off months worth of fuel, crews, willow stakes, etc. It’s only a couple thousand $ per trip. And if people have been living in your location for decades just using conventional vehicles and roads then it’s not even necessary; not even worth talking about.
Here is a good video showing a guy explaining an old-school thermal mass heating system in a cold part of the world. My point again is that so many responses here seem to be advocating for easy add-on hacks of old systems where you actually set yourself back 100 years in basic technology. I just don’t understand why people don’t look at what we already have that you can buy today and is so such much easier and cheaper. Especially for a temporary set-up where minimum labor is required.
The air quality with a modern wood stove or rocket stove or the like is not poor - these are way different than an open fire place. I’ve been to the house in winter of my friend who uses wood stoves in this area for heat and he’s discussed their good points and bad point. The air quality is fine. Nor do they take as much wood to produce the same amount of heat as an open hearth. Ash will be an issue, but it’s just part of cleaning the house and cooking.
Not exactly. More that we have certain and sure sources of water, not necessarily easy sources of water. People go to the expense and bother of drilling a well out there to get the “easy” part of the equation.
Actually, the local regulations might in fact require a septic system for a year round residence. We’re checking into that. It’s the difference between “physically possible” and “legally possible”. As other folks have pointed out “rural” doesn’t mean “lawless”.
Getting a service truck in is quite doable - there is a road access to the property, that’s how the owner has been accessing it for three quarters of a century. The “driveway” is currently dirt but upgrading that would be part of putting in a home.
Which are cramped and not all conducive to aging in place, which is a significant factor for us. Sure, as you have noted we could get a custom build-out but we can also design from the ground up. We could gut the interior and rebuild it, but we can also design from the ground up. I’m not entirely sure this route would save us time, effort, or money. Like I said, there’s not a bad idea and probably great for many people but they aren’t what we’re looking for.
That’s why one consideration is making sure we can hunker down for a span of time in the home with everything we need. It’s not that the roads are never maintained, but you can’t expect them to be groomed and car-ready 100% of the time. Heck, I live in the Chicago area and my home is equipped so I can get by for days without needing to go out because we’ve had storms that made our roads impassible for a couple days from time to time and this is an urban area. You plan ahead so you don’t need to haul “significant supplies” in winter conditions.
A couple thousand per trip is a substantial freight charge for most people. It’s not impossible, but it’s not done lightly, either. This sort of air freight is not a feature in the area, although perhaps it’s worth looking into why not. There is an air port just outside of town, perhaps that would be a place to inquire about such things as they would be aware of such activities even if they don’t originate there (which I’m pretty sure they don’t, as only 110LL and “mogas” are available there, not the fuel I’d expect for the sort of turbine engines I’d expect in that line of work these days). Charming little airport, set right inside the golf course with the notice that one should be on the look out not only for deer and birds but the occasional golf cart crossing the runway. Sounds like the sort of places I learned to fly.
We’ve actually kicked around the idea of putting in a private strip on this piece of land and getting an ultralight/sportplane/two-seater GA but that’s a daydream until we get this place built - adding all that would be a luxury. One we’d like to have and it’s alright to dream but very, very much on the back burner. Also, mowing/plowing a backyard strip would be a pain in the backside but that’s neither here nor there. It would be less effort to base at an established airport although more expensive.
There is one significant bottleneck for getting goods into and out of the area that most locations accessible by road do not need to consider that needs to be factored into these sorts of decisions. Now that you’ve brought it up I do wonder why there isn’t air freight in the area. Or maybe the owner just isn’t aware of it. Maybe folks don’t use it because it’s not occurred to them and the old ways are “good enough”.
Sure. We’re already looking into that sort of technology. You don’t provide the link for the very pretty Finnish stone stoves, but honestly we’re not going to pay to have something like that shipped halfway around the world when we can build something in place that will do the same job for less initial outlay. If nothing else than because use more local (like sourced from the same continent) will reduce the freight charges.
I think it’s that word “temporary” causing a problem for me. We are wanting a permanent home. And maybe one can be made using such things.
I stand a real chance of living to be 90 or 100 based on my recent ancestors who made it into old age. All of whom who still upright, walking, clear-headed, and capable of living independently. So could the next oldest member of this group (her mother is in her late 80’s now and still lives in her own home, takes care of herself, drives, etc. We are, in fact, considering that we might want to move her up to live with us as well in her final years if we get this project done soon enough.) That’s 30-40 years I feel I need to plan for. So maybe it’s just that you keep saying “temporary” when to my mind 40 years isn’t temporary.
I did go back and look at the links again to the used trailer and I have to say that it would be terrible for aging in place. It’s not just a matter of putting a ramp in to the entrance. The doors are narrow and I’m not sure there is any way to widen them. The walk ways are likewise narrow. The bathroom and kitchen are cramped. Part of it the long, narrow layout of the unit that makes it look like living in truck trailer. If it was for just one person, maybe, but for three? I don’t see how any of us could actually have private space to ourselves in there. Not to mention that we all have some possessions we’d like to keep. Perhaps there are better and more comfortable examples but what you’ve shown me makes me want to stay away, not look into this further. Also, none of us want to be sleeping bunk beds for the rest of our lives, never mind the issues of having to climb into the top bunk for the elderly. For a couple of years when I’m young and healthy, sure, but that is not the place I’d willing live in as my last home.
Which is why I said what you suggest is great for some people in some circumstances. Thank you for the suggestions, but I don’t think this particular solution is going to work for us.
Bottom line, this is not something we have to do - all of us have retirement plans in place and could choose to continue along that path. This is us trying to figure out if, by pooling resources, we could get better so we don’t want to just buy what’s cheap or expedient, we don’t want to buy something used and jury-rig it into working. There’s much to learn from what has already been done by others, but that doesn’t mean we have to do things exactly as they did. Maybe there is some sort of modular housing out there that would work for us (and certainly there are modular homes from a variety of eras in the area) but the stuff you’ve shown me made for remote mining/worksites are not it, because it seems either engineered for hundreds of people (which we aren’t) or cramped even for one, much less three people living in close proximity for decades. Likely there is a middle ground but if so I haven’t seen it yet.
That’s the other word I think it throwing me off. It’s not just about pinching pennies. Sure, there’s a budget and definitely there are financial limits but we’re not on a shoestring budget here.
We are looking into using modular/pre-fab units in construction so “modular” and “pre-fab” aren’t the obstacles. I think it’s words like “temporary” and “cheap”. So perhaps I have miscontrued some of your posts and I will go back and reread them again with that in mind.
I could not find data for the immediate area but based on the closest reporting points that do have data somewhere between 48 to 100 inches a year. Lake effect snow is a big factor just based on geographic location. So… comparable to what my sister in Buffalo, NY copes with (around 85 inches a year) but Buffalo has the local tax base to support a lot of snow removal.
Sure, we could plow the driveway/access road, but there’s no way we’re going to plow all the way into town. Being snowed in is a real thing in the area and one that has to be planned for.
Maybe we do need a plow, but it wasn’t something I personally thought about. I’ll have to consult with the others, this may not be a surprise to the land owner.
Yeah, we get way, way more snow than that. I do plow my drive way and occasionally the road (I use that term very loosely) that hooks up to a 2 lane mountain highway. But that’s only about 2 miles. I wouldn’t want to do more than that with a pick-up truck.
The county is pretty good with plowing, but we are last on their list. And, they do use seasonal help for this, so when April comes around, they don’t have as many on staff to plow. We can still get plenty of snow though.
My thought is that a truck could serve double or triple duty. It’s always handy to have a pick-up truck.
Indeed. Which is one reason I keep fixing mine rather than replace it, although I do not think the particular pick up I have would be good for plowing (2 wheel drive and very much for light duty) even though they do, apparently, make plows for it. Maybe it would serve to do a driveway for our purposes. Another thing to possibly research, although with 20+ years already on it getting a different, newer one might make more sense.
That’s an interesting question.
Since the plan is to move there after we retire and no longer have to worry about getting to work every day that may not be necessary even if desirable on certain levels. I was expecting a sedan, SUV, and pickup largely because we already collectively have those (actually more, all being multi-vehicle households) and that would seem to be a good mix of vehicles and capability. I was also expecting a snowmobile although someone did suggest a quad, too.
At some point one or more of us may not be able to legally drive a car anymore, but that’s a risk you run anywhere. With several of us under one roof the odds of all three of us losing our licenses at the same time are less. We may wind up moving there with all the vehicles we currently own then shedding them over time as they wear out.
That’s an interesting point - what vehicles would be good for this sort of situation and how many? Up to now I’ve never bothered with 4 wheel drive but then I haven’t needed one - pretty sure at least would be a good idea for the area we’re looking at. There is at least one 4 wheel drive SUV in our collective “fleet”. 4 wheel drive is not necessary in summer as people in our group have gone camping on the property with a 2 wheel drive sedan with no problem.
Keep in mind we’re not that far from town. I went back and checked the distance over roads. It’s a bit under 10 miles from town/gas station/groceries/hardware. In summer or on cleared roads it’s a short drive. As I said, everyone in the region plans for being snowed in from time to time so it’s a matter of being able to shelter in place for a week, maybe two, if you get by a major snow/blizzard. In some ways severe and enduring cold is more of an issue - during the winter months they actually set up an ice road into Canada (and vice versa) so in some ways winter increases travel options instead of closing them all off. I’m not entirely sure about using an ice road, but that’s to a large degree from complete lack of experience with them.
As far as severe cold - I’ve gone out and functioned in temperatures as low as -30 C so I’m aware of the gear needed for that. Also the joys of starting an ICE in those temperatures - that kind of cold really messes with the battery and starting. Also, windshield washer fluid that says “good down to -25F” should be taken at face value because it WILL freeze at -27F (voice of experience there). So yes, there are a few accommodations that need to be made for that but it’s not a complete unknown. All of us have been active in winter sports all our lives - we respect cold but we do not fear it. Climate change MIGHT mitigate some of that, but even if the cold isn’t as consistent as in the past the last few years have demonstrated that cold intervals are still very much a thing.
The neighbors have mentioned snowmobile type vehicles because some of them do use the ice road to Canada, there are quite a few trails in the area for both access and recreation purposes in winter, and apparently they do have some utility for going to town if necessary when there’s a lot of snow. Apparently getting stuff from the corresponding town in Canada in winter via ice road is a thing (and vice versa) because the Customs/Border information on line really, really emphasize that you have to declare goods you bought in the other country when crossing that line in the snow. I dunno, maybe there’s a lot of maple syrup smuggling going on.
Co housing idea amongst elderly friends is a great idea! Building it new to aging in place specifications is fantastic opportunity.
But why off grid, because your friend has remote acreage? Off grid seems like a lot of work, daily chores that require heavy physical labor beyond puttering about a veg garden and keeping the wood stove going. Michigan? Some areas are running out of good groundwater hard to believe but true.
Co housing yes, the off grid requirement for inexperienced seniors, not so much.
Again - we’re not moving out to desolate wilderness. We’re not going to have to run a hobby farm, or grow our own food. Sure, we’re talking about gardening but that’s because we enjoy it and are able to do it. If that stops being doable groceries are available nearby. There are tradesmen and businesses nearby.
Even if there were grid hookups available - which, given the neighbors are discussing it might happen although this is not the first time that’s been proposed - we still want back up because the grid, as we’ve all seen recently, can go down. It’s a lot better to be able to shelter in place than to have to evacuate because you have no back up for anything. In town back-up generators for the home have, apparently, long been a thing for that very reason.
This is not one of them. Nor do they have an issue with lead in the water or industrial pollution in the area, all things you need to watch out for in Michigan (I lived there for 12 years, I am aware of these issues)
Yes, the fact the acreage is already owned is much of the reason we’re looking at feasibility for this. A possible alternative might be to sell the land and purchase something in the area that is hooked up to the grid but, again, you’d still need back up to the grid, that’s always been a factor in the area. A possibility is selling part of the parcel to defray costs on this project.
And absolutely we’re looking at what labor would be involved in this as an on-going residence. We anticipate needing to hire at least some labor and that is being researched and if we go forward will be folded into the maintenance costs of the property. Having to hire help and contractors would be a factor no matter where we retire to.
While all of us are currently living on the grid that hasn’t been the case all the time. All of us have experience with well and septic systems including maintenance.
(Our prior plan was urban homesteading in Detroit, if you can believe that. We haven’t entirely ruled that out, although it presents significantly different obstacles and hazards)
As I’ve said all along, we’re researching this. If it’s doable, great. If, after we’ve done our homework we decide it’s not going to work then no harm done.
This is only speaking from my own experience, but I think that a 4x4 is an absolute necessity for a plow truck. I have snow chains on all four tires. But our winters are long and can be quite brutal. We get 20-30 feet of snow a year.
Sounds like you are going to have a 4x4 SUV. So if you only need to get through 4 or 5 inches of snow to get into town, you should be good. A plow on a pick-up is going to have difficulty pushing through more that about a foot and a half of snow. It really depends on how wet the snow is, and how capable the truck is.
Yeah, while I love my pickup and it’s had great utility for me over the years I have no illusions about it being on the lower end of pickup capability.
That’s good but not the whole picture of gw quality issues here. I was thinking of areas where the gw is high in arsenic, nitrates or requires drilling hundreds of feet to get decent bedrock aquifer. But what is difficult to detect and remove are PFAS. Golf course operations and fire dept in addition to air force bases and industry were the culprits. This migrating within an aquifer are a real concern for many townships in northern lower MI, and all of Michigan. Not to put you off just information for anyone building new requiring well water
Of course, we’re now finding out that some areas were high in water contaminants all along even without human industry making the problems worse.
Back when I lived with a well and septic we had the water tested yearly because if you had good water originally wells can go bad, and that has always been an issue. For that matter, the town I live in now gets its water tested annually and issues a report to everyone.
I’m not sure of the number of homes/families that could be included in your group, but have you considered forming a special district, like a quasi-government agency, to handle these utilities, or part of them? It all depends on the applicable laws and provisions, of course, but it might be worth exploring.
Not far from me, about 60 years ago, an unincorporated area did just that for their sewer system (only). At the time it was considered low-tech (two settlement ponds, mostly gravity feed, etc.) but times have changed, and now the same system is a darling of environmentalists and a showpiece. The system serves a single geographic area (about 200 homes, 4 small businesses and a school, and governs itself independent of any other formal government body like a town, city, or village. It seems to work, and they have available capacity for new hookups without new assessments, at least for a while.
You might look into working with the Earthship company. They specialize in off-grid houses with massive thermal mass insulation. I think @Sunspace has participated in at least one build so he might have insight into how viable it was for his friends.
Broomstick, please don’t take this as a threadshit, because that is not my intent. However, I want to point out a few things that a I feel some other posters have been dancing around and hinting at but haven’t really addressed head-on.
I’m not at all an expert but It seems to me, judging by the responses, that living off-grid isn’t that technically difficult. The technology is available to live comfortably, warmly, and with most modern conveniences. Things like wells and septic systems are not complicated, but they are expensive to install and require routine maintenance. Propane can provide heating, cooking, and even refrigeration. The problem is that maintaining these systems and keeping them in functioning order takes a lot of work, a lot of expense, and can lead to disaster should they fail and a backup system is unavailable.
Since you and your friends have put a lot of thought into this I’m going to assume this is not a place where you will leave for a year or three and then move to Florida to spend your remaining years. It sounds like this is where you all want to spend your remaining years. In this physical location, in this physical environment. I want to deconstruct this a bit.
You’ve noted that access to the property will be limited. You’ve even eschewed the idea of using propane appliances due to the fact that you won’t be able to get a propane delivery truck to the property. This is very concerning. Since there will be several of you living in the same home the need for immediate access to the outside world should be your first priority.
As people age having good, reliable, and often quick access to medical care becomes a priority. You’ve mentioned that it’s “only” 10 miles to the nearest town with gas and groceries, but how far is it to the nearest hospital? How far is it a town that offers medical specialists when (not if, when) the need arises?
If you are in a situation where you are snowed in, either by chance or design, a medical emergency can turn into an immediate crisis – moreso if you have limited ability to contact the outside world. If you are snowed in and a medical emergency arises, you might as well be stranded in the middle of antarctica. Further, contacting the outside world will do no good if emergency services cannot reach you. You noted there was an RN in your group. That’s good. But an RN does not replace a physician and does not replace an emergency room with the ability to treat acute trauma and similar medical emergencies. Being able and prepared to “shelter in place,” as you call it, means absolutely nothing when medical emergencies arise.
Someone upthread mentioned designing the home with wheelchair users in mind: wide hallways and doorways, vanities that have no cabinets underneath, roll-in showers, and framing in the walls to support grab rails. All good ideas. But what about transporting someone with limited mobility? Will you have some sort of garage where a person in a wheelchair can get into and out of a van without navigating a snow-covered path? That needs to be considered as well.
Related to that, medical emergencies my not even be the most pressing concern. That would likely be routine medical care, the need for which increases almost exponentially as people age. Again, a long commute into “town” for routine but frequent medical appointments can easily become a huge burden at those distances. Indeed, based on your posts so far, I’ll go ahead and predict it will be impossible in your current plans. I don’t recall you mentioning how many people will be joining this endeavor, but is it realistic to expect a group of seniors to simply make no appointments and have no medical needs during the several months that they would likely be snowed in? If so please please reconsider that notion.
@Enipla has noted many times over the years the amount of work that is required by him just maintain physical accessibility to the rest of civilization during the winter months. He’s also noted in this very thread that the amount of work required will become too much and they plan to move to more hospitable location in their retirement. This is very wise and I would encourage you to ponder his reasoning for doing so.
I get the sense that you and your friends are doing this for financial reasons. Judging from the responses living off-grid is more costly that living in the suburbs and that is not taking into account the added logistics you seem to be facing: having to stock an entire season’s worth of fuel / firewood / groceries at a time in preparation for the likelihood of being snowed in. The logistics of living off-grid aren’t that difficult, the technology is readily available (although if you aren’t willing to utilize propane, such a life will be much harder). However, the logistics of a group of seniors living safely in a remote, inaccessible location are much, much harder.
I could make several suggestions on possible alternatives that would very likely still fit your stated needs for communal living while maintaining personal privacy as needed but I have a feeling you have no desire to read those. I would, however, humbly suggest you take a long, hard look at the realities of the living situation you plan to put yourself in, the reasons for doing so, and determining if the dangers of that sort of lifestyle are acceptable.
Whatever you choose to do, I wish you the best of luck and success.
My grandparents lived quite comfortably off-grid until my grandmother’s medical condition required moving to Medford. Their ‘ranch’ was 14 miles from the nearest town, and I don’t know how far from the nearest fire station or hospital.
Since Broomstick and her friends are set on living off-grid, I’m just throwing this out for general consumption. But since I know which state (but not the region) in which she lives… There’s a TV show about rescuing old houses in Detroit – about 300 miles east of Chicago. Large houses with lots of space seem to be very inexpensive. [NB: I’m a SoCal native, so my idea of ‘inexpensive’ may be skewed.] For anyone else considering moving off-grid with a group of friends, it may be worth considering looking for such a property and spending the money that would have been spent on off-grid infrastructure on refurbishing the house instead – and be closer to necessary services.
Actually, this sort of thing is why I wanted this is Factual Answers because, as I have repeatedly stated, I am interested in the nuts and bolts of doing this and not relationship, financial, or other advice not related to building and maintaining such a project.
But I will take it in the spirit given.
Let me clarify that under no circumstances would I have EVER moved to Florida. And yes, I’ve been to Florida. I absolutely loathe heat. I never tan, so the prospect of continual sun and beaches are likewise something else I loathe as it would result in a lot of painful sunburn, or I have to avoid going outside, or I have to wear long sleeves and pants (in the heat!). That’s leaving aside rising ocean levels, hurricanes, and so forth. And a multitude of bugs and giant flesh-eating lizards. I will never retire to a “warm” climate because I would find tremendously uncomfortable. Back when my spouse was still alive we discussed retiring to Alaska. As well as kicking around an arrangement like what I’m currently discussing.
Yes, in the winter there will be access problems. There are some aspects of propane delivery that make getting it to the location more difficult than it might otherwise be but that occurs even before it gets into the local town (perhaps some are unaware that many bridges, tunnels, ferries, and other such obstacles impose limits and regulations on transporting hazardous materials, including fuels, that increase costs and can limit shipments. My late mother-in-law shipped in propane to heat her house. To get there we could go through the Cumberland Gap Tunnel but her propane had to take a longer route to get to her due to all the rules and limitations around what could or could not go through that tunnel, as just one example from my own past).
Outside of that, getting to town and “the outside world” for people is not as arduous, indeed, a steady stream of people go in and out of the town daily, as is the case in most places.
75 miles.
In a dire emergency airlift services would be needed, but they are available in the area. Granted this is not as convenient as, say, living in New York City which has multiple hospitals, but lots of people live that far or father from a hospital. I don’t view this as an absolute obstacle to living anywhere.
That’s true if you’re snowed in ANYWHERE. By that logic no one should ever lived outside of a major city, ever.
Oddly enough we’ve had that prospect with the Aging Mother of One Party, who lives in a rural area with, shall we say, less than prompt governmental snow removal. She’s required both a hip replacement and a shoulder replacement. (She’s better now, thanks, and back to full independence) So yes, we do understand on a visceral level what you are talking about and the obstacles there.
While “exponential” increase in treatment certainly is possible it is not a certainty. Until he was 86 my father required no maintenance medication and no more than an annual physical, as an example. This was occasionally greeted with astonishment, but “healthy old age” is not an oxymoron.
Being snowed in is NOT for “months at a time”. It’s more typically as few days or a week or two. Back when my sister-who-ignores-my-existence was still speaking to me occasionally she was living in a small town off Lake Superior. There were storms and days were you’d need to hunker down but eventually the streets would be made passable again, you weren’t cut off for months.
He has also noted that he gets more snow than the location we are looking at, too.
Again, we’re not in deep untracked wilderness. This is just slightly off the grid. Far enough that looking at being off-grid vs. hooking into the grid makes some sense. At a certain point off-grid costs exceed paying for the infrastructure to be on-grid. But even the folks on grid all have back-ups, as do the businesses in the area. Storms knock down power lines. Natural gas is completely unavailable in the area. Solar and wind are both becoming more and more common in the area as technology marches on and costs come down.
Yes, in one sense.
Let me be clear, at present my finances and retirement are on track that I could maintain my current lifestyle exactly where I am into my mid-90’s. If we decide against this I have the option to stay right where I am. Or move somewhere else. Ditto for everyone else in the group. While it would be nice to improve our finances we are not being driven to this by an inability to pay for our current plans and retirement. Much more than money we don’t want to live alone in old age. We kid that if one of us won a multi-million lottery (or even just a million) we’d break ground on the dream home tomorrow. This acreage in the north is a place we’d like to live, but if we can’t live there we’d still like to live together, or at least in close proximity, to form a sort of family/support group into our later years.
Because this is such a concern to people (and I am touched you are concerned for my well being) when I am no longer geographically tied to my current location by the need to work every day to have an income it is my intention to move much closer to these people regardless of whether that is a move to the north or to where they currently live or some other location we’ve decided on. It’s not about money, it’s about not being alone and isolated, something we are all very much concerned with. This thread was intended to get information about setting up off-grid as one option we are investigating.
One more time: it’s remote but it’s NOT “inaccessible” in the sense I think most people mean the term.
Not in this thread, because that would be a hijack. However, I’d be more than happy to see a separate thread about communal living for middle-aged and senior adults. Go ahead and start one, I’ll drop in and we’ll have a more wide ranging discussion.
Thank you.
We are well aware that even if we desire to remain in such a place for the rest of our lives it may not be possible due to any number of reasons. On the other hand, if we could get 10 or 20 years in such a place would that be such a terrible thing? I could get hit by a big truck going to work one morning but I don’t stop making long range plans because of that risk.
We’re looking into that as a possibility, too. However, even if Detroit has made enormous progress crawling out of the abyss there are still serious problems in the area, including crime, and in the past two years civil unrest. Which has a lot to do with why housing is so cheap in the area by anyone’s standard even if property values are finally starting (very sluggishly) to rise again.
We’ve also been discussing the virtues of adapting an existing structure vs. building new with aging-in-place in mind.
That, however, would be for another thread, not one about building off-grid. It’s not that we are “set” on living off-grid, it’s that we’re researching the feasibility of it for our particular selves.
One plus for the northern acreage is that crime is VERY low in the area. A lot less industrial pollution in the greater region is another.
I realize that discussing a rural property AND an inner-urban property as alternatives we are looking at for retirement might seem to be extreme differences, but I’m the sort of person who seems to be pretty happy regardless of where I’m living. Our goal here isn’t “retire to specific location”, it’s “how can we retire together? What are our options?”
Some thoughts about off-grid living as I currently understand it:
1) It takes more physical space than living on-grid. Just a general observation and I’m certain there are exceptions, especially for tiny houses and RV living, but in general, even if the living space is similar to what might be used by on-grid living the total space used tends to be larger, because of number 2
2) You’re not just building a house, you’re building utilities. Since you can’t pipe in power, water, etc. and pipe out your waste you have to, essentially, set up your own mini-utilities. You need a mini-power plant, you need a mini-water works, etc.
3) Initial costs are more because you’re building a house + mini-utilities. You are also having to do more maintenance to keep everything going rather than outsourcing some of these concerns to a utility company or local municipality.
4) Because of all of the above, long term cost-effectiveness comparison can be difficult. I noted this back in my prior residence in regard to the water situation. Sure was nice to never have to pay a monthly water bill! On the other hand, when something did go wrong the owner had to cough up a couple hundred or a couple thousand dollars. So instead of paying a set amount monthly you’d go long periods with no bill then suddenly get a large one. Near as I can tell, either one of those methods (monthly payments vs. episodic payments) could be larger or smaller than the other. All sorts of factors come into play with this.
5) Living off grid you damn well better be the sort to look ahead, do regular maintenance, and make contingency plans. As it a happens I do tend to be that sort - that’s why I have two vehicles older than 20 years that are nonetheless reliable, maintained, and when they do need work done I’m able to draw the money out of my “rainy day” fund and get it done without needing to borrow from someone else. The homeowners in our group likewise do the same with the current residence, setting aside the funds to get work done or major appliances replaced without borrowing. Ditto for their vehicles. This, I think, is a major factor dividing those who successfully live off grid and those for whom it becomes a disaster.
6) Part of any living situation involves knowing when the pull the plug. This is true of almost any living situation - when my prior residence lost all utilities after a week of camping out in my living room with no power, light, water, or heat I called the landlord for a discussion about just how long repairs would be and a week later I had a new place rented. My parents moved out of the last single-family home before they lost all ability to keep up with it physically. When my mother died dad moved in with my sister in New York not because he was forced to do so - indeed, many people were encouraging him to buy a condo for himself - but because he chose to do so because he didn’t want to live on his own. Sure, he saved a lot of money but that’s not what drove the decision, he had the self-awareness to know that living alone would be bad for him mentally and emotionally.
Likewise, even if we DID go ahead with this project there could very well come a day when all of us, or the last of us, might need to or want to “pull the plug”. It might be due to health or frailty. It might be due to finances. It might be because living alone in a larger place than needed is not what is wanted and moving into town or a small city makes sense at that point. It might be 10 years in, or 20. We might, one by one, pass away peacefully in our sleep in the residence. Can’t know everything and can’t plan for everything, all we can do is make our best guess and make the best of what we do get.
Yes @Lancia And certainly don’t want to prevent people from perusing a dream.
Allow me to do a longer bio about living remote and with serious snow.
I moved up here when I was 30. It was for a job. That’s all gone very well. But my Wife and I are 61 now. She’s a former IronMan and is out snowshoeing with the dogs as I type this. We love living here as rough as it can be, but we know it’s not going to work in 10 or 20 years. The one house that is closest to us is on it’s third family because they could not take the snow and isolation.
The newest residents of that house have their shit together, and are in their 40’s but still need help from me. But I would never hesitate to contact them for help. We are all friends.
My Wife and I are very comfortable living away from services. It’s been half of our life. The sail of retirement is on the horizon, and well the writing is on the wall. Our plan is to buy a house/property somewhat more accessible in 5 or so years. We are looking.
I just got back from town from a grocery run. 15 miles. 4x4 locked in all the way. The idea of doing that on a snowmobile, buying groceries for 4-5 people may sound like adventurous fun at first, but soon turns into a chore that I guarantee you will not enjoy. I would have to be desperate to try that.
I wonder if the impetus for this is that there is already land to build on. I don’t want to be a wet blanket, and I’m not really one to give others advice unless I really know them well. But, I hope you and your friends look at other possibilities before trying this.
I will miss this place, but a couple of acres closer to a town in less inclement weather may be nice.