I’m seen this parental response happen and what you are sometimes left with after doing this is a non-performing kid that is going to tracked into low performing classes and groups or in some cases assigned to alternative schools (which you will have to make transportation arrangements for). A kid will generally be fed and clothed and housed by default, they are not like a homeless drug addict who will “hit bottom” and see the error of their ways. Some oppositional and defiant kids will be perfectly happy at this low performance end of the spectrum.
This is true. And sometimes you are left with a kid who pulls all his Ds and Fs up into As in two weeks. (My elder.) File this under: figure out what works for your kid. If pulling back is going to work, it will work fairly quickly - within a couple of months or after the first report card when they test your response to actually failing. If it doesn’t work, change tactics again.
I have a large number of younger cousins that I’ve watched grow up, and they all seem to go through a period of extreme obnoxiousness somewhere between the ages of 8 and 12. Like to the point where being around them for even a short period of time was a chore, and you could tell even their own parents were having troubling covering up that they had trouble stomaching them.
But so far, they all got better pretty drastically once they got old enough to develop some social awareness. I think eventually kids like that start driving away their peers, and start modifying their behavior so as not to alienate all their friends.
So no, I don’t think its particularly unusual.
No, it is entirely possible to fail second grade. It is even possible to fail second grade and go on to a happy life.
I’m not talking about giving up on the child at all. Shielding her from consequences is not working out well for her and is likely having the complete opposite of the intended effect, so is worse than a waste of time and energy. Doing less of the unpleasant and nonessential tasks associated with the child is best for both parties, now and later.
Oh no, a happy kid, what a disaster. I didn’t even think of that potential catastrophe.
I suppose my point was that some especially stubbornly defiant kids will be “happy” not to be pressed to do their schoolwork and don’t mind being tracked as chronic underachievers so long as they can avoid schoolwork. I’m not sure this is a particularly good “happiness” in absolute terms as it tends to compromise academic and intellectual achievement and tracking kids as slothful underachievers does not usually have positive outcomes in the long run.
I really feel for you and understand what you mean when you say you don’t like her. I have a niece that you described very well and I also have a couple of cousins whose kids would fall into that same description.
There is a common dynamic present in the households of these kids wich may very well not be the case in your household. I won’t discuss it here unless you say you would like to hear it.
Why be coy, if there’s an observed family dynamic you have seen for the manifestation of lying, screaming, overly dramatic kids why not just state it?
I always found that roping hysterical children to a tree worked.
It certainly didn’t build resentment in them. More it was a face-saving way to exit their tantrum and at times it was a matter of pride it had happened.
Then again sometimes it was quite necessary - such as the time the little red-headed girl caused my aspiring cricketer son to be run out! He would have seriously maimed her if he could!
I haven’t had coffee yet today, so it’s possible I’m just missing some sort of really obvious joke. But, assuming I’m not, you really tied your children to a tree when they were hysterical? How long for? How old were they? Didn’t anyone else say anything about this?
I’ve been told many times that the 9-year-old girl is probably the most challenging kind of child - and 8 is close enough. It’s the first surge of puberty hormones.
I guess the Australian way doesn’t appeal to all.
Yes I did tie them up and no, non-one complained. And yes in most cases it was consensual. They knew they were play-acting and so did I.
When they were really off the planet - rarely - grabbing them and taking to a place of solitude and holding them there was necessary. By holding I mean holding.
As someone whose father was mentally ill, and was raised by my grandfather, I don’t think you can rule out that there’s just something wrong with the girl. My grandfather tried to raise my dad right, tried everything possible, and had another son who turned out just fine. I turned out okay too. But Dad, he just never responded to either positive or negative discipline and could never control his impulses. Once he was a teenager, he was diagnosed with schizophrenia.
I realize that parents and professionals too often resort to medical diagnoses of normal childrens’ behavior, but what you describe seems significantly enough out of the norm that there might be a real problem that no amount of good parenting can fix. Or it could just be a phase she’ll grow out of. Parents don’t “win” every year of their kids’ lives, sometimes they just get through them until the kid’s development leads them in a new direction.
Frylock, is this the same child who you allowed to jump on a couch in a waiting room under mysteriously “appropriate” circumstances, when she was ~3? (See 7 pages of posts starting here.) How’d that work out?
I have a child that is somewhat like you describe, she also has ADHD and I’m not sure how much of a role that plays into it but when she takes her medicine on school days she is completely different and much easier to deal with, we also try to put her in a lot of different activities: Soccer, gymnastics, etc. during after school hours and on the weekends. Now before someone accuses me of doping her up to make her easier to deal with, she is my stepchild so I didn’t really have any important say as to whether she went on medication, that was Mom’s call.
And she gets attention for doing it, doesn’t she? So the next time it happens, ignore her. It worked for me with my niece.
My first thought upon reading the OP was a more than usually rapid rise and fall of blood sugar. In the very rare instances when Celtling’s blood sugar got too low she would act very similarly to what you describe. I made a point of asking her to notice how she felt, then gave her something to eat, and asked her again in about 20 minutes. She learned by age four to note whether she was tired, or hungry or maybe just needed a hug, and how to ask for what she needed. She also learned that she could trust me to satisfy the need right away if she said she couldn’t wait.
I’ve known full adults who never learned to gage these things about their own bodies, and go through life a slave to mood swings they don’t comprehend. Make sure you are teaching these things to your child.
Another thing that comes to mind is Sensory Processing Disorder. For some people, sensory input of various types comes in differently than for you or I. Response to noise is a really common example. While they don’t have super hearing, (it doesn’t necessarily “sound” louder to them, and they don’t hear softer noises than you or I do) a noise which seems regular and inconsequential to us may be very startling to them and provoke an adrenaline reaction.
Response to adrenal secretion is really important to recognize in your child. Once that adrenaline hits, they really can’t control their behavior until it wears off. In my experience, it takes a good 20 minutes at least. Until it wears off they feel exactly as if a pack of lions is chasing them and they MUST do X to keep from being eaten. The feeling is that extreme, and that desperate.
The human mind being what it is, and demanding explanation for these feelings, will cast about in the immediate vicinity for some causative. Once it latches on to something, (anything!) that might be causing the discomfort, it proceeds to grasp for a solution. There is little to no logic involved, and trying to apply logic is just an exercise in frustration. The whole cycle can become a feedback loop because “fixing” whatever it is may take just about the amount of time that the adrenaline needs to wear down. Thus convincing the child that whatever it was (i.e. making big brother hold the things just so) worked. If what “worked” is a repeatable thing it can become an obsession. (i.e. turning off the light switch three times, or eating only the chicken nuggets, or holding a particular blanket or stuffed animal.)
The most helpful thing I’ve found in these cases is to encourage laughter. “Ooh! Did that startle you?” Giggles, and tickles and hugs until she feels calm again. Laughter really helps to burn off the adrenaline and prevent feedback loops from forming.
Things you are probably already doing/trying, but just in case you haven’t thought of any of them:
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Always keep your voice low. Never join in the vocal escalation. This is harder than it sounds as we naturally raise our voices to be heard; it helps immensely if you can do it.
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Develop a complete inability to understand any words which are whined, yelled or screamed. Respond with caring puzzlement, showing a willingness to help but asking the child to state calmly what they need. (See above: child may not know, or may suggest something illogical. This is not their “fault.”)
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Hugs. Lots and lots of hugs. I found that just by purposefully starting each day with a good, 20 second hug with my undivided attention I improved Celtling’s behavior and happiness level enormously. It also makes my day much better. Don’t wait for the anxiety to hit before doing it, in fact, make an effort to spontaneously hug the child when she’s calm.
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Catch them being good. When we’re stressed and overtasked it is easy to pay attention only when we need to get the child to do something, or do something differently. A simple kiss on the head or praising comment when they are playing constructively or cooperating well motivates the right behaviors.
OK, I’m getting into tome territory here, so I’m gonna stop. Hope this helps!
Wow, I really hope Fry was just having a bad day that day. Because that thread and this thread juxtaposed together does not look good for him.
I know this is the SDMB, and Frylock certainly looks like a douchebag in the other thread, but two threads over a five year period is a stretch to condemn him as a bad parent.
Unless there’s more, but I don’t keep track of posters well enough to know.
Frylock, is this your daughter? Perhaps a step daughter? In your op you say “her mom” and you just call her a girl or a kid.