Terror at 2:00 AM - Don't read if you're depressed

Anth (is it OK if I call you Anth?), if it makes any difference, I go through the exact same phase as you are at the moment. Every little thing you describe is either happening to me right now or has happened not too long ago. I sometimes lay in bed and can’t sleep no matter how tired I am, scared of just being snuffed out of existence. And my mind circling around and around, eventually coming to same conclusion each time over: I am going to die. Not only am I going to die, but I’ll be growing old and wither away. My mind will falter and I won’t recognise my family. And to top it off: I won’t be having children, so good chances are I’ll die alone with only the memories of my loved ones. I also tried to believe in God, but I realised that I just don’t and couldn’t bring myself to lying to myself. I also realised that if God exists, he wouldn’t look too favorable towards someone who belives in Him just for the sake of shaking off his own fears.

I too was getting afraid about studying the cosmos for the exact same reasons you and Chas.E describe. And coming to the conclusion that I will never live long enough to find the answers to all these questions I have. I wan’t to see what the world is like 200 years from now and what will happen when time ends. But that must be happening very fast, because 60 years from now (at most) life will be over for me.

Luckily, I only have these attacks at night. When it becomes light and I have people around me, it distracts me enough to not think about it. I also find that having someone next to me at night shakes off the fears, whether that someone is talking to me or not. Unfortunately, I’m not so blessed as you are with fierra…

It is going better lately by the way. For some reason I accepted the fact that nothing I do can change things and that I just have to accept things as they are. I also realised that oblivion means that I also won’t care about things when I’m dead. Before, that was a concept that I couldn’t grasp, but now I’m able to just not worry so much anymore. I can’t really explain this in words, but I certainly hope that you will find that state too. It is not so much a state of apathy, but more a case of not caring anymore. Doesn’t mean that I don’t wake up shaking and swaeting anymore, but these episodes do happen less frequently and much shorter than usual.

Don’t think that this will be of any help to you, but I thought I’d share anyway.

By the way, something that did help me when I had it very bad a few months ago: watching the movie Deep Impact. For some reason it was very comforting to think that someday a meteorite might hit the Earth and that everyone will die in one go. Weird, I know, but everyone dying all at once is my happiest thought when I have one of those attacks again…

I must be weird. I’ve always found the concept of oblivion to be fairly comforting–it’s life that scares the hell out of me.

Heh. Me too. <wan grin> I was in a planetarium when I was about ooooh…call it 7 or 8. They explained that the sun would turn into a red giant, destroy the earth and eventually go out. It gave me such a horrible, empty, lump of ice in the pit of my stomach feeling that I ended up throwing up.

Regarding the panic attacks, mine were far less intense than what you describe, but lasted longer (say, a couple of seconds of heart-pounding panic followed by 30-40 minutes of deep unease). Breathing exercises helped as did having a stack of books by my bed that I could lose myself in.

By the way, Chas and Anth: don’t read The Five Ages of the Universe or The Last Three Minutes if this stuff still bothers you. I kind of regret having done so, myself. I learned a lot, they were well written, but I had trouble sleeping for days after.

Fenris

anthracite, here’s another plug for eastern thought. try one or all of these books. they may help give you a new perspective on life, and death, and oblivion.

Thich Naht Hahn’s Being Peace and Peace is Every Step

The Snow Lion by Peter Mathiessen

Long Quiet Highway by Natalie Goldberg

this idea may not help right now, but it sounds like your fear of dying is majorly interfering with your ability to enjoy living. you may only have another 50 years, true, or even less. so if you cant live for today, consider living for the old person you’ll be one day, so that when your time comes, you wont be gnashing your teeth and hating yourself because your fear subsumed your whole life. good luck.

Ok, I have to agree with that darn cat. When I can’t sleep because I have too much on my mind, I do deep breathing excerises to help clear my mind. It is usually successful.

I have not ever suffered panic attacks so I don’t really have any advice for that, except maybe it would help to see a counselor or therapist? Maybe the fear of oblivion is something you need to face and overcome by discussing it, getting to the root of it, etc. Just a thought.

By the way…I have a fear of outer space. (Don’t laugh! It’s true.) The vastness of it, the lack of gravity…it scares the bejeepers out of me to think about just floating out there, all alone. Luckily, I am pretty sure that I’ll never be an astronaut or have to travel by space, so this fear of mine does not really affect me except during the occasional movie in which someone gets separated fromt their spaceship and just floats away…ugh…anyway, I feel a teeny little fraction of a micron of your pain and I’m sorry. I hope you are able to find something that helps.

I don’t have any divinely-inspired wisdom either, just the usual make-it-up-as-I-go-along variety.

My own take on oblivion and consciousness is something that’s gelled for me only recently, coming together in the several weeks of thought that followed [url=“http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=77181”]this odd Great Debates thread** I was involved in. And that is–I don’t think consciousness ends. Identity does, depending on your reference point, but consciousness itself simply doesn’t. It’s instantiated in certain shapes of spacetime, and when those patterns are not, it isn’t–where it isn’t, it doesn’t experience, and they effectively don’t exist for it. “Ending” is a term with no meaning for it.

The trick is, “my” consciousness isn’t something separate from “yours” or anyone else’s–identity and self arise simply as a nature of the experience generated by the particular twist of spacetime that composes me. Viewed through the air above a hot flame, things ripple and shimmer–that shimmering isn’t real. Identity is a heat mirage. It’s not “my” consciousness–more like, “I” am its. Anatman, more or less.

Similarly, I don’t know how the universe is going to end up. It may well be that the mainstream thrust of cosmology right now is correct, that omega is simply not large enough and the universe will keep expanding faster and faster, entropy will take all energy to an infinite limit approaching absolute zero. Perhaps protons will decay out of existence, leaving just void. Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps at a certain point of void-expansion, the continued acceleration will hit a point where, counterintuitively, everything starts new, another “bang” that some billions of years later, someone will capitalize and think of as “The” Big Bang. Cycles.

But even if not, I think that’s a similar situation (if it will be so) only from one reference frame, in a similar thing to thinking of what happens to “your” consciusness when entropy changes the pattern of the body into such that it can no longer be instantiated into it. Without beginning, without ending.

But that’s my peace with it. Best hopes that you find your own.

I am not as spiritually developed or well informed as many of other posters in this thread as a lapsed Episcopalian lo these many years. I am more (if honest with myself) of an atheist than anything else and I expect this 43 year old, big white monkey to be worm food well before the next century rolls around.

Does it bother me? Well hmmm…not really. I don’t want to die and would fight tenaciously to live (especially for my kids) but we’ve all got to die and if it is back to the carbon, re-incarnated as a tree or into the arms of the God/dess what does it really matter? For all our efforts we can’t really know the end. As the sad robot says “It’s only speculation”.

Per your OP you have apparently already seen medical specialists re any organic underpinnings of these panic attacks that engulf you like a tsunami of despair so I assume meds or therapies etc. have not been a lasting or effective solution and the true problem is not organic in origin but is a true and profound sense of anomie and dis-association. Worrying about dropping back into the black consuming void of nothingness in this context is sometimes not the true root problem but more of an intellectual distraction, resonating with, and masking something deeper and more unpleasant to deal with. What that soul vacuum is in your situation I have no idea, and you may not either given human abilites to mask and sublimate pain and hurt.

Having said this and thinking about your OP while typing I realize that caring for my children occupies a huge chunk of whatever is consider sacred (to me) in my positivist leaning rationale for existence. Caring for and loving them gives my life meaning beyond the normal day to day ups and downs and connects me in profound way with something infinite.

Sorry I don’t have more to offer. I really thought I did until I started writing this. I now realize how feeble anything I can say to you to “buck you up” might be and I am sorry I don’t have more to offer than maybe “adopt a child” or something you can invest yourself in that extends you beyond the here and now to anchor your soul to.

I would thing that a book like “Nausea” by J.P. Sartre would be the worst thing to read. But this sort of thing doesn’t bother me anymore.

I feel bad now, for having maybe inadvertently raised the spectre of cosmological doom in it’s most primal form, not just for Anthracite, but for others too. And at the risk of further damage, this is the one primal archetype of doom. It’s the sun going red giant and swallowing the earth, it’s The Blob, the sky falling, the bus that comes out of nowhere and hits you in the face, and all the other nameless, faceless dooms. It’s the abyss we all must face. I could list all the ways people have dealt with this, from Aleister Crowley to Zen Buddhism, but we all have to face the abyss and find our own way of dealing with it. That is the purpose of life.

But getting back to the OP, my personal prescription for Anthracite would be to go rent “The 5th Element.”

Perhaps your mind and body will be physically gone, but you will be remembered. Every word you say and every action you take leaves an impact somewhere. I don’t know if this thought will help you or not. I offer it because I have found it to be comforting. As long as I am remembered, I am still around.

The only fear of death I have is the thought I might die before I have a chance to express all that I need to share…my stories, my poetry, my music.

Even still, there are those who I have been able to share with…I am honored to have been able to entertain them and hopefully give them something to think about.

I think I’ll go now before I start sounding like “The Starfish Flinger.” Or maybe I already have…

I personally deal with mortality by refusing to accept its inevitability, while not having what one would call a strong theological belief system.
I have started from the Axiom I exist therefore I will exist, and work out ward from there.
Basically I have life defined as a self-conscious energy pattern, which can be encoded into the base quantum energy level for matter. Admittedly I am still working on the details, but I’ll let you know if I get them all sorted out.
This approach has the added benefit of increasing my appetite for knowledge rather than decreasing it.
It may be self-delusion but it works for me.
I am just thankful that entropy has its limits and they it is not zero, thank you Mr Hinesburg et el.

I also have a couple of backup strategies already worked out just in case the encoding doesn’t pan out.

Anth, I know you said you’ve sought professional help, but the best advice I can give you is to go seek it again. Many of the symptoms you’re describing sound like one or another form of clinical depression as well as one of the anxiety/panic disorders. Plus, the stress these attacks puts your body through can’t be good for your heart. A good doctor should look you over and make recommendations from there. That’s the physical side of things - go see a doctor and take it from there. Medical science does actually offer some help.

On the existential side of things, I’m not going to tell you that “it’ll all be A-OK,” because obviously, it won’t. Most people shy away from any thoughts of mortality or run straight into the arms of religion. Those who don’t sprint one way or the other are stuck facing up to the bleak reality of our finiteness. Saying that you “won’t know about it” or “won’t be there for it” provides no comfort. We empathize with things that are distant from us all the time. On an intellectual level, I think we’re better off with a certain level of discomfort when it comes to death. It keeps us from being complacent. However, what you’re experiencing is far and away too traumatic to be dismissed with a simple riddle and answer.

Most of us make some sort of peace with our future demise. We have to get on with our lives whether it’s out of obligation to someone else or a need to step out of the shadows. Don’t be afraid to seek for answers to your dilemma, Anth, and don’t forget that we’re here for you.

I have read carefully each and every one of your thoughtful responses, and thank you all for taking the time to put down in words advice, alternatives, and suggestions.

My panic attacks are not treatable by medication, other than those that just knock you out or make your mind dull. As astro said, it is more a sense of anomie and dis-association.

CrankyAsAnOldMan - were in my bedroom watching me last night? Because your description of your friend’s experience was frightningly close to what I go through.

One thing that was mentioned earlier by Bosda (and that Fierra can attest to) was breathing difficulties at night. I do have great difficulty breathing when I lay down, and can only really breathe sleeping on my tummy, head turned to the left, no pillow whatsoever. Any other position and I start to choke after a while. I often wake up choking and gasping for breath, having moved my position too much from the “desired” one. And no, I am not overweight - I weigh 143 at 5’5.5". Maybe taking an antihistamine would help me sleep.

I fear sleeping tonight. I wonder if 2:00 am will find me posting here again.

You could also look into a visit to a sleep specialist such as mentioned at this site. I am afraid, I can not find a sleep centre in your area ** Anthracite**, but I’m have to rely on web searches so there may be something like this close.

The antihistamines are good, but the neck support pillows tilt the head slightly back. This opens the airways, just like lifting the head prior to CPR.

Try it!

Those breathing strips may help, too. Without medication.

Consult your physician. He can help with breathing problems.

Una,

I’m just going to jump in here (without reading the entire thread) and give you the gift that everyone gives and nobody takes; Advice.

You have a brain, and from all indications, a fine one at that. Now is the time to apply all of your knowledge and wisdom towards one and only one goal. Realize your place in this universe. It need not be so infintesimal as you might think. From our recent emails to each other, I have had the immense pleasure to find out that we are much better friends than I had previously thought. How can you possibly feel so unimportant when you are receiving so much affirmation from so many of the good people at these boards?

If you need further proof that you are getting one of the only worthwhile things in life here; namely, praise from the praiseworthy, I invite you to read through Zette’s “Good Deeds” thread over in IMHO. I’m sure that you could think of a thing or two to contribute to it as well.

Try to get past the sense of oblivion and finality that contemplation of our temporal frame can so easily overwhelm us with. To quote Meher Baba:

"BE HERE NOW."

You are living way too far outside the envelope of you own existence. Of course you’re going to feel small and insignificant whenever you do so. To quote William Blake:

“Man’s reach shall always exceed his grasp.”

You are in possession of one of the finest instruments in the known universe, a pretty well functional human brain. What you have managed to do with your mind is quite admirable. Your intelligence and professionalism serve as a model to us all. It is now time to turn this finely tuned instrument inward and focus it upon the issues that so obviously still dog you in the wee hours.

That you do not have any belief in God should not matter in the least to you. That you felt abandoned by Him in your time of need is another matter entirely and is a good place to begin. You need to rescue yourself. Be your own hero. Use your intelligence and goodness to treat yourself right and fully realize your own self worth. If you could just find the enduring self-satisfaction of finally loving yourself as you deserve to, things would improve a lot faster than you might think.

You may wish to look up my old “Loving Yourself, How Did You Learn To Do It?”, thread from IMHO. It had a lot of important input from others here at the boards. Please try to get past the uncertainties and insecurities that are so easily bred by the hobgoblins of an intelligent mind. You are much loved here and I for one will not stand for someone as good as you feeling so sad!

Email me anytime you need to or look for me online at AOL and chat me up. I’ll always be willing to listen and I’ll be triple-d@mned-in-hell if someone as nice as you is going to go it alone.

Zenster

My entire childhood was series of panic attacks and death phobia. Without going into enough detail to set off an attack in anybody, they were as bad as the OP’s. Anything relating to death would bring on an attack-coffins, skeletons, the news, ghost stories, memorial day, museum exhibits, etc. Then I started taking Ritalin for ADHD (This was in the early 80’s, when Ritalin was prescrribed only for kids who actually had ADD). The attacks diminished from nuclear bomb intensity to capgun.

    I'd talk to a psychiatrist. Therapy alone might help-either by finding an underlying cause, isolating triggers or teaching though-stopping techniques. If not, the right medication can do amazing things.

Douglas Adams addressed something like Una’s problem in “The Restaurant at the End of the Universe,” in which the Total Perspective Vortex is used as an instrument of torture:

You’ve had your glimpse into the Vortex and it’s scary. But it might also be how your mind is explaining the Near Death Experience that comes from your sleeep/breathing problem. And you have come to expect it, so it becomes self-fulfilling. Once you can break the cycle you should be able to go back your regular dreams.

And you are welcome to my dreams about buying boring used cars.

Anthracite, I must admit a certain kinship with that feeling. More sympathy than empathy, but there is even some empathy here.

I moved to the Boston area just over 1.5 years ago. Last October a friend moved here to live with me, and he is undergoing something very similar… strangely as a result of me.

It was a rare day in our life when we didn’t indulge in some sort of philosophic conversation about the nature of things, where we as a civilization were heading, where we should head, whether there can be life after death (both atheists), and so on. We are both very interested, as a hobby, in the implications of quantum mechanics, relativity, and general cosmology and cosmogony (did I spell that right?!?!).

(wow, big personal release time to follow, don’t read if you aren’t interested in super-personal details of my life)
I have always been a huge fan of LSD. Since the first time I tried it in my senior year of high school I’ve felt it to be The Perfect Drug, Trent Reznor’s song notwithstadning. When I felt like being giggly, i could giggle better than a pothead on a fresh toke. When I felt like being serious my seriousness was intense. When I felt like looking for connections between seemingly disparate ideas, events, or things LSD would be there for me, allowing my otherwise skeptical mind to just let go and start making some connections. My roomate had never done it before just last year; he was diametrically opposed to drug use on some principle which I don’t think he actually understood.

Hallucinogens are wont to cause many people to have religious experiences, and neither I nor he were any exception to this rule. Playing the PlayStation’s Silent Hill was no exception: we lived in that town. Tetris made more sense when the music was playing, and in some ways became a metaphor for life. This is the fun of LSD: it is an emotional amplifier of sorts. After a trip, over the next few days, I would spend many an hour going over and over the thoughts I had in my mind, discarding ones which were obviously just caused by the drugs, and paying close attention to ones that seemed to have been released by them, but were otherwise very plausible (if there were any, I must admit that most of the time there aren’t :p).

[/quote]
So one night, while he and I were tripping, we were hot into the discussion-- with gleeful anticipation-- of next generation gaming and what it was likely to bring.

Here I had a revelation. Little did I know my friend had already had one a few eweks ago during a previous experience. (flashback to a trip follows-- in the literary sense, please)

At that time he had taken a trip up to the store to get something to drink, and when he returned the conversation quickly turned to God, or a Godlike being, and how the universe was conscious. WHOA, I said, no WAY you can convince me of that. We went at it for over an hour or so, I was strenuously questioning his line of thought, we were going off in tangents about what consciousness is and how one could or could not determine whether the universe in its entirety could fit the bill.

That night ended without resolution on my part, but he was still steadfast in his belief: the universe was conscious. Not only was it conscious, but it was never-ending. I mistakenly thought he meant in a big bang–>big crunch–>big bang sorta way, but that wasn’t the truth.

(return to present tense in the story) So there we are, looking at some AVIs he had downloaded showing prerelease footage of new video games, and my trip was really starting to kick in.

What, I asked myself, is the whole point of gaming? Almost instantly I had a very visual image in my mind of a gaming timeline of sorts, starting from punchcard checkers to todays teams of designers and testers to what the future might bring (I could never, ever do this moving image justice in writing, so I won’t even try) and then it happened.

The point of gaming.

I saw, at the end of this timeline, and eager programmer in the unspecific future working on a 3D holographic-style program in the style of RPGs and in front of him was not a monitor, but another person. The person was facing the programmer with a strange look and said, simply, “Hi.”

I couldn’t look at the AVIs anymore. My roommate was rambling on about something and I sorta looked away, then walked away, then sat down. (I am getting shivers just thinking about it-- this is the first time I’ve retold this story to anyone). The conversation I flashbacked to before popped into my mind. “Lets assume,” he had said, “that the universe is conscious.” “The universe’s time is eternal, it cycles and cycles” he had said, and I was thinking big bang big crunch.

“Dude,” I said, “the fucking universe is a game.”

THAT is what he had meant… there was no evidence that the universe was conscious. There was no evidence of a GOD figure in our lives, much like there is no evidence of the programmer in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. That “universe” had its own “phsics” and people and for all Alucard knows he has free will and has chosen to take a quest to rid the world of Dracula.

But we know better; it is just a game.

But what is the point of gaming? What are we doing? Diversionary pleasure? Are we avoiding the “real world” because it doesn’t offer us what the game does?

“Lets assume the universe is conscious…” That is, “Lets assume consciousness exists.” What would it do? Consciousness without body, without form, floating in nothing… why, it would spend its time in diversion from the utter banality of the void it lived in.

Well, truly, it goes on from there and I don’t intend to go on and on about it, but the final conclusion was that we are simply living in the universe’s little game, and it doesn’t even realize we’re conscious. As far as its concerned we’re just a little “program” running, operating according to some rules here or there and carrying on. (And it truly does go on from there, whether or not there is more than one consciousness, whether we are truly conscious or not, whether blah blah blah and what are the situations underlying consciousness, where those (or that) consciousness comes from, did it have to come from anywhere, can a lone consciousness conceive of the possibility of other consciousnesses, blah blah blah lots of boring details he and I have been fleshing out for some time)

For my friend, who felt that there very much needed to be a point to life, the entire idea was very depressing and he was in a bad mood for quite some time over it (still is pretty touchy about philosophical questions), while I finally felt totally released.

I decided in a Douglas Adams sorta way that the point of the game was to solve the problem of the universe’s unhappiness (that is, to solve the problem of it having to create a diversion in the first place) and that the point to us-- and possibly the millions of “people” that have come before us and the millions that may follow-- was this: to be happy. That was the point of the “program.” We had been put in a situation which was diametrically opposed to individual happiness and we had to figure out a way to get it. Not just diversionary happiness, not just contentedness, but pure, unrefined, constant joy. THAT is why we are here, and as long as we are on that quest we are serving our purpose and we will continue to exist. As soon as we give up trying, or we actually achieve the goal, the universe is done with us-- we’ve served our purpose-- and we will continue to exist no more.

We truly are a microcosm of “The Consciousness,” and our job is to fix It.
[/quote]

One HELL of a trip, I know, and though the mention of drug use may taint this story and remove some of its value to some of you, let me tell assure you that regardless of the source of this feeling, I “know” it and am as confident of its truth as fundie’s belief in God. I have had plenty of little trips where I felt in touch with god or in tune with the universe in some way, but this is the only one I have ever had where I continue to ponder it far after the event.

HOW I handled it compared to how my friend handled it, however, is what caused me to post this in the first place. He felt a sense of utter loss. He felt like a tool. He felt cheated and most importantly betrayed. His suffering was meaningless. His happiness was meaningless. He screamed (internally, of course) to this “God-thing” “Why are you putting me through this?!” He felt utterly and monumentally let down. Life would cycle on and on, seemingly endless universes of different shapes, sizes, and inhabitants, all put in situations where suffering was almost guaranteed, and over and over again-- how many hims were doing the same thing, questioning reality, challenging the “fact” that he had to suffer…

I, meanwhile, have found a new purpose. It is to be happy, to find this happiness. It is my goal to do it to others, as well, to drive them in the pursuit. I want this game to end, I don’t want suffering or pointlessness or unconfirmed beliefs grinding people down. As hippy and trite as it sounds, we’ve got to be happy for the suffering to end. There is no other way.

There you have it, folks. Why *erislover is, in part, an Eris lover.

: bows out :

You have no idea how many times I previewed that thing, over and over, editing any chance coding error (didn’t bother with typos, I think people can read well enough to gte by them) and trying to make some things clearer.

Aftre the final preview, I add the closing.

AND I SCREW UP THE CODING. Classic :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

Since this isn’t GD I’m not touching it. But that was good for a nostalgic giggle, erislover. :slight_smile: