We had back yard chickens at first, and they pecked the hell out of each other. I dunno, maybe chickens were kinder back when you had them.
I visited an operation a client has with several hundred thousand chickens, stacked in cages eight high. He told me you keep more than 3 or 4 chickens in close proximity, that they will start to fight.
I was personally attacked by my wife’s chickens while feeding them all the time (back when we had them.)
so I can personally testify to their bad nature.
Michi:
BBQ steak takes to long to cook and toughens the meat. Frying in butter over a super hot burner, preserves the tender nature of your average beef cow.
Cogi- Okay, leaving aside the entire “meat isn’t ethical” argument, exactly how is throwing a pie into Glickman’s face supposed to start debate? So far, about the only debate I’ve seen is “PETA and the pie-thrower are fucking loons” vs. “PETA and the pie-thrower are dangerous idiots.”
While this is a debate I enjoy a great deal (PETA’s HQ is here in suburban Maryland, so I’ve been fed up with them for over a decade so far), somehow I don’t think it’s going to make anyone turn to the militant vegetarianism that PETA espouses, aside from the few paranoids who worry that if they continue to eat meat, someone might throw a pie at them.
And I heartily agree that PETA is a terrorist organization, solely devoted to breaking laws and destroying property until their agenda is accepted as law. Even worse, their objectives are just plain loony.
Last year, one of the animal research labs at the University of Minnesota was broken into, and the animals were released into the wild. There was damage well into the millions, not only in terms of the physical damage to the building and lab, but also in terms of the destruction of YEARS of research, including research into Alzheimer’s disease and cancer.
I’d honestly LOVE to see one of these Animal Liberation Front or PETA members look straight into the eyes of a spouse or child of an Alzheimer’s patient and explain how the “right” of a rat to run around outside outweighs the alleviation of human suffering.
Perhaps I’m picking nits, but I don’t think you have made your point. None of your arguments actually dealt with eating meat. Your arguments deal solely with cruelty in keeping animals and presumed immorality in killing them for meat. So if a cow dropped dead of a heart attack, eating the meat would then be moral because none of the reasons you state for not eating meat apply. And, as as already been pointed out, what happens to your arguments if the animal in question is treated humanly and well cared for and completely unaware of what’s happening at the moment of death? No cruelty, so is it moral?
There are moral arguments for not eating meat, but they are primarily religious in nature, and the very act of ingesting the meat is the immoral part. This I have no problem with. But those who believe this way are not evangelical about it. They may despise slaughtering for meat, but very few try to impose their beliefs on others by threat or by violence.
So, please try again and tell us exactly why the act of eating meat is, in and of itself, immoral.
Has anyone ever sued PETA for the cost of a fur coat, or whatever may have been damaged during one of their attacks? I know some pretty damn valuable clothes, purses and shoes were ruined recently when PETA threw red paint at buyers during a NY fashion show. If that was MY Louis Vuitton bag or Charles Jourdan shoes covered with red paint, I would damn well sue for damages!
Yeah, I’ll testify right there with you on the bad temper of chickens. I recall, on more than one occasion, running like hell from a rooster which was almost as tall as I was (he probably wasn’t, but I was a lot shorter than I am now). Ouch! (I’d like to point out, parenthetically, that I made a point of eating as much as possible of this particular rooster when my dad finally offed him.)
The chickens we had did indeed peck each other, pretty often, to establish and reinforce dominance (thus the term, “pecking order,” an etymology that I suppose is pretty obvious). I imagine that establishment of a pecking order is the reason your client’s chickens fight. In fact, I’d hazard to guess (just a guess, mind you) that chicken unused to socializing might be more vicious than normal.
On the other hand, although the poor hen at the bottom of the pecking order usually had no feathers on her head, very rarely did the pecking draw blood. I think, based on what I’ve personally seen, that chickens are better off in groups in larger enclosures (or free range) than they are individually in small cages. As such, I’m willing to (and I do) pay more for “free-range” eggs and poultry.
If PETA wants people to stop eating meat, they should devote resources to making a relatively cheap veggieburger or meat substitute that doesn’t taste like utter shite.
Instead of writing articles with “Eating meat comprises the three prongs of the devil’s toasting fork…” (sounds like Jack Chick went veggie) or “You can’t have a nutrition summit that doesn’t say flatly, ‘Vegetarian diets save lives-yours, the animals’, and the Earth’s”.
(No, I didn’t make that up- more PETA wackiness can be found by following CogErgSum’s PETA link and clicking on “Agriculture Secretary Ducks Pie in Puss” or by following this link: http://www.peta.com/news/500/500agpie.html )
Ok, I’m gonna try to get everybody covered in this.
coosa–PETA realizes that animals kill each other for food. But that does not justify humans killing animals for food. And if you want to say it does, you are still taking a bullshit argument, because almost all the animals you eat are herbivores. Pigs, chickens, cows, etc. (I’ll concede fish.)
Scylla–Well, it seems to me that you are the one spreading propoganda, because the vast number of pictures and accounts of cruelty to animals couldn’t be fabricated.
Divemaster–Please explain how the world would parish if humans stopped raising animals for food. Do you have any fucking clue how damaging meat is to the environment. Why do you think that almost every employee of Green Peace is a vegan??
Corrado–Actually it has started a debate, we are arguing, aren’t we? Oh, and in case you are wondering, PETA’s HQ is in Norfolk, not in DC as it was many years ago.
Msrobyn–You firstly need to differentiate between PETA and other AR organizations. I’m almost positive that that was the ALF (Animal Liberation Front) which supports illegal action which aids animals. (I’m not standing up for it, but the ALF also makes sure that no person is ever physically harmed). And, granted, there are some very small animal rights groups which support violence towards animal abusers, but most AR advocates shun these actions.
pinqy–(the only seemingly civil person so far). Ok, the point I was trying to make was that the vast majority of meat comes from cruel conditions and that there is almost no way to make sure that your meat comes from one of those kind, family run farms. My personal beliefs are that we shouldn’t kill an animal for food if we don’t have to. Yes, we are able to digest meat, but humans can easily live on non meat sources since neanderthals were nomadic and lived in a large variety of environments.
Mojo–How many veggie burgers have you had. Granted some meat substitutes do taste like shit, but others, like boca burgers, are damn good. Fry that thing up, and most of you will be impressed.
Any questions?
I have no doubt that man has and continues to perpetrate horrible an unnecesary cruelties against animals.
You state that the majority of meat that is eaten is derived from sources where there is deliberate and sustained cruelty. You have offered no evidence to suggest that this might be true. Most farmers and foodraisers are very cognizant of the welfare of their animals not out of copassion, but out of common sense. These animals represent their livelihood and financial security. They tae care of them, or they go out of business.
I had the courtesy to reply point for point on your instances of cruelty to show you that you were mistaken, and ignorant concerning these practices.
What Propaganda have I spread?
BTW pigs are omnivores. Believe me, they eat meat.
Green Peace members are Vegans becuause they tend to be fruitcakes, just like PETA.
How can meat be damaging to the environment? WHat actual experience do you have with the “environment” anyway?
We are not Neanderthals. We are a different species. Besides, Neanderthals ate meat too. WHat does this have to do with anything.
All Veggie burgers taste like shit.
Gotta go kill some Groundhogs and eat some chicken now. I will say to the groundhog “I kill you in the name of cogitoergosum. I kill you for his ignorance. If it wasn’t for him I would let you live in peace my little brother under the earth.”
Cogitoergosum, now that I fully understand your arguments on the immorality or eating meat, I have to say I don’t agree with the most basic piece of information you based your whole line of reasoning on. This concerns your statement “we survive just as well and possibly better without eating meat”. I have tried to survive on non-meat diets and I invariably start feeling weaker, have less energy and lose muscle mass within a couple of days. I have tried legumes, protein powders and dairy products, but nothing seems to replace meat as an acceptable protein source in my personal experience. I have been able to cut the meat proportions in my diet by supplementing it with the things I mentioned, but I find I still need a certain amount of meat on a daily basis.
If you can survive without meat, more power to you, but don’t start presuming what I need and don’t need. Frankly, I think the world can live without religion and can find plenty of documentation to support my views, but nothing so blatantly fundamental in nature that I would question someone else’s right to practice religion. Likewise, I think there is enough conflicting evidence in the necessity of meat in the human diet that non-meat eaters should respect meat eaters need and/or right to eat it.
WOW scylla, you definately are courteous as you say. I also love your amazing ability to dismiss arguments by saying that Green Peace members and PETA members are fruitcakes and that all veggie burgers taste like shit.
Did you actually go to any of those animal rights sights?? They would have given proof of cruelty and vast environmental damage.
The point I made about neanderthals was that we have evolved to be able to consume a variety of food and that it is natural to be a vegetarian just as it is natural to be an omnivore.
Scylla, thanks for your insight into this. As a city slicker, you get plenty of the PETA agenda in your face and it’s rare that you hear the farmer’s side of this. The statement, “Workers who beat their livestock are destroying or damaging a valuable commodity.” rang very true to me. I’m sure farmers go out of their way to keep their inventory in good condition.
and Cogitoergosum, if laws were passed that mandated the ethical treatment of farm animals to your standards (excluding of course their slaughter), would you end your crusade? I doubt it very seriously. Because…
The ethical angle is a sideshow, like the pie in the face. Ethics have nothing to do with the real agenda. The ‘E’ in PETA is about as real as Pravda in the USSR.
I’ve had quite a lot of veggie burgers. Most are inedible, the exception being Boca Burgers (and their Chix fillets are really good). However, as good as Boca Burgers are, they are not as good as a real burger (or “steamed hams”). They are not as filling as a real burger. And at ~$3 for a box of 4, they are more expensive than a real hamburger (I notice you didn’t touch the “relatively cheap” part of my statement).
I don’t eat hamburger because I’ve got some dead animal/bloodlust fixation- I eat em cus they taste much better than the alternatives, are more reasonably priced, and, like DID said, I feel like I have more energy after eating a real meat burger (unless I eat a whole lot of them in which case I just feel like a large slug).
Dear cognitoergosum:
I just want to congratulate you for furnishing ample proof that to belong to PETA is to have the approximate intelligence of a wilted begonia.
In one of your early posts, you wrote that PETA wants to show how “stupid and immoral it is to eat meat.” Then you turn around and make the statement that it is as natural to be a vegetarian as it is to be an omnivore. George Orwell would be proud; doublespeak, not to mention a complete lack of logic, is alive and well in 2000.
I renew my standing advice to you and all other PETA scum: Smear yourself with peanut butter and jelly, go to Yellowstone Park and feed the bears.
And Vision Resaerch Graphics harms animals in what fashion with their software you silly twit?
I have already conceded that humans are occasionally and perhaps even often needlessly cruel to animals. In the food industry this is a relative rarity.
Most cruelty comes from pet owners who neglect or abuse their animals, mostly out of the kind of ignorance you spew in abundance.
As little as I agree with the PETA people, I have to answer a question that the PETA apologist seems to be avoiding. Mind you, I’ll also debunk about half of it…
A. I’m not sure of the exact statistics, but the amount of land needed to feed beef cattle could support enough grain to feed something like 30 times as many people as the one cow could. This is a common statistic thrown around by PETA folks. What they neglect to mention is what happens to the cattle if nobody eats them. We still have to feed them and support them, right? I’m sure none of the PETA folks would want cattle to become extinct (or even to have their numbers cut down because they’ve been made unnecessary), so they’re just going to have to deal with the fact that we either eat them, or waste the land AND the food.
B. Cattle farmers in Brazil and other South American countries are mowing down rainforests every day to provide grazing land for their herds. This sucks for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that the rainforests provide a great deal of the world’s oxygen. This is another stat thrown out by the PETA folks, and it’s a bit more hairy to deal with.
Now excuse me while I go shower…I feel dirty.
Oh, and I need to digest that all-beef hot dog I just ate.
Anybody with any sense realizes that ALF is the action/terrorist arm of PETA–just as the IRA is the action arm of Sinn Fein.
I wonder what would happen if a group of surviving family members of cancer patients were to publicly kill some animals in retaliation every time a medical research lab was raided? Say, right on PETA’s doorstep?
This is apparently the sort of thing that passes for “Ethical” treatment.
Paraphrasing Dennis Miller:
“These…[people]…need to examine their priorities. I’ve seen them step on homeless people to throw ink on someone’s fur coat.”
Even though I dislike the destruction of the rainforest, and feel it should be stopped, the claim that the rainforest is in anyway the ‘lungs of the earth’ or produces a large portion of the earth’s oxygen is to my knowledge incorrect. The net oxygen released by a rainforest is zero. This is because the rainforest also breathes oxygen, the animals living in it, the fungus’s eating the dead things, and the plants themselves at night all convert oxygen to carbon dioxide.
The entire oxygen/carbon dioxide thing is majorly confusing to most. It is hard for most people to remember for instance, that a carbon dioxide (CO2) molecule has as much oxygen as an oxygen molecule does (O2).
Terry Pratchett, Ian Stewart, and Jack Cohen’s book The Science of Discworld has an excellent section on this. Don’t let the name fool you, the book is very much a Brief History of Time type book, though presented in a slightly different manner. I just finished re-reading the book last night.
