This isn’t exactly a big issue, but if you can’t challenge an errant statement on the SDMB, where can you?
CogitoErgoSum declared that pigs and chickens are herbivores. This is incorrect. As Scylla has already pointed out, pigs will eat damn near anything, from a chestnut to a pound of beef. I don’t think anybody has mentioned that chickens are also omnivorous. They often supplement their diet with juicy worms and bugs.
Cogitoergosum said
You still haven’t defended your argument that “eating meat is immoral.” All you’ve said is that keeping animals in cruel conditions is immoral. I’ll grant you that. But that does not mean that eating meat is, in and of itself an immoral act. You said there is “almost no way” to assure that the meat one eats is from an animal that was not kept in cruel conditions. But what if there is? What if I raised the animals myself and pampered them until it was time to eat them, and killed them painlessly, with no suffering? Is the eating of the meat still “immoral?” My point is; argue your actual argument. If your beef (pun intended) is with cruelty to animals, then make that your argument…don’t say “eating meat is immoral,” because the two are not necessarily related. You said your personal beliefs are we shouldn’t kill for food unless we have to, but you have not extended that to why everyone should hold that to be true. I feel confident in saying that if you had simply said “we should not raise food animals in cruel conditions” you would have had much more agreement.
Yes, we don’t really “need” meat, but we don’t really need to eat chocolate, either, and I’ll be damned if you can convince me that that’s a reason I shouldn’t eat chocolate.
So, I’ll ask again: assuming we minimize or eliminate the suffering of food animals, what then is immoral about eating meat? Or, different scenario, a deer crosses the road in front of my car and I can’t get out of the way. I hit it, it dies. Is eating the meat immoral?
Oh, and side note…reread the PETA FAQ’s about violence in activism. They openly condone the actions of the ALF yet still claim that “The animal rights movement is nonviolent.”
pinqy
Excuse me? Ok, so I’m off topic here, but since when are plants converting oxygen to CO2? It’s been a long time since I took botony, but as I recall, the equation is something like:
6(CO2)+12(H20)+Light Energy --> C6H12O6+6(O2)+6(H2O)
Forgive me for not remembering how to do subscripting.
That said, I still don’t believe in PETA’s agenda.
I lost a $10 bet when I discovered that chickens will eat small, live mice! They love the things! I’m lucky I didn’t bet more, because there was no way I was going to believe THAT, and I thought it was easy money…
A little story to show just how irrational and absurd PETA is.
A good friend of mine used to work at the Nature Conservancy, an organization that purchases wilderness areas to protect endagered species, biodiversity, etc. While she was working there, the conservancy was having a problem with some of their territory in, IIRC, Hawaii. It seems that a lot of non-indigenous pigs had turned feral and were wreaking havoc on the native flora and fauna. The conservancy managed to round up and relocate many of these pigs, but some had gone deep into the wilderness, and were difficult if not impossible to locate. In order to combat the problem, the conservancy laid snares to trap and kill them.
Common sense right? Well, PETA didn’t think so. For weeks, the Conservancy, a non-profit enviromental group, were besieged by protestors doing the usual annoying, in-your-face street theater PETA specializes in. Like most PETA protests, this had little effect but to massage the egos of the demonstrators, but it was annoying for my friend and her co-workers. Furthermore, they were worried the protests might affect fund-raising.
The Conservancy chose the snare approach as a last resort, and after much consideration. They called PETA repeatedly and tried to schedule a meeting, where PETA could present alternative solutions. They were constantly rebuffed.
This made it clear to me that PETA isn’t really interested in solutions, but more in there own self righteous, ignorant theater.
There are organizations devoted to common sense animal welfare, from the humane society to your local no-kill shelter. These organizations help animals much more than PETA’s lunatic stunts.
Ultimately Coosa hit the nail on the head with her distinction between Animal Welfare and Animal Rights. I have two cats and take care of them. If I saw someone gratuitously hurting an animal I would try to intervene. I believe farms and research labs should operate under humane guidelines. But when the welfare of animals is placed above that of humans, you have left the bounds of reason.
First off, regarding chickens
They eat each other! Listen to this horribly sad story
We used to raise chickens, and would have 2-3 dozen at any given time for eggs/meat and to control the bug/mice population. Well, I had a Grand Champion (County fair winner) hen, she was beautiful. I was so proud of her. One night I went out to close the chicken coops,(Gotta keep them foxes out) and my hen was fine. The next morning there was a HOLE poked THROUGH her body about a half inch in diameter. I could literally see right through her. And the sad thing was, she was still alive.
Chickens and pigs are two of the most vicious animals I have ever encountered.
THank you Scylla for your informative posts. They were very wise, and points that I wanted to make. Except you made them better.
There is a “pecking order” in the wild kingdom, a food chain. Cows eat grass, Humans eat cows. Chickens eat bugs, Humans eat chickens. Owls eat mice. Cats eat mice. See? Some animals are predators, some are not. Humans are predators by default because we’ve figured out new and ingenious ways to hunt our food.
Now, I’m going to have some steak and eggs, while I remember all the hunting trips I’ve been on, and how many animals I’ve killed to feed myself. Goodnight!
Originally, PETA started from a much more limited and sane premise, ie, the mistreatment of laboratory animals FOR NO GOOD REASON, I emphasize. And they had some very worthwhile successes, by encouraging experimenters to consider other options for obtaining results. As is too often the case, a worthy and intelligent cause attracts converts, which translates to zealotry, and the mensheviks go to the wall.
How long do you figure before we grown our meat in vats? After all the chicken is extraneous, its the meat we’re after. If we can grow non-sentient meat, will that resolve the ethical dillema?
(Though my experience matches Scylla, the chicken is so close to being non-sentient, it hardly matters. Bong-water has more existential essence and Buddha nature than a chicken. Whose quote about glimpsing the meaning of mindless evil in a chickens eye?)
Miss techchick here signs in.
PETA is full of people that don’t understand that eating meat is not a sin or beer is better than milk (although I prefer beer) PETA had some good intentions to begin with but now is nothing worse than a radical militia.
Hey, anyone that doesn’t eat meat and chooses not to, fine. But when is it EVER appropriate to force yourself upon a news conference of anyone and humiliate them? How does this support anyone’s cause by looking like a complete fool in the eyes of the world? It only makes the cause look like a bunch of raving loonies and harms the original meaning of such organizations.
I equate PETA with the Operation Rescue people. They don’t practice what they preach and do so much violation of civil rights it’s unbelievable. These two organizations can’t get it in their heads that working with those forces you oppose rather than against them will get you further. It may take some time but acting like complete asses only allows your critics to use your wacky acts against you.
Sheesh, I am an NRA member and I don’t go shoving food or bullets in the faces of socialistic government officials to get my point across. I do it peacefully. I discuss my concerns and pay my dues to the NRA rather than acting like I need to be shackled up and placed in isolation.
If the NRA conducted themselves in this manner I would quit my membership immediately. They may hold demonstrations but I don’t think there is one time I have ever heard of rogue NRA members act in this manner.
PETA needs to get smart and quit thinking in radical terms, man they piss me off.
< BTW, eating fish is bad for you according to them. If this is the case then why are some of the healthiest people around those that live off fish and rice? >
:::::::rolling eyes::::::::
Really? Then what is this bullshit? Meatless Meals for Dogs and Cats
Excuse me, but aren’t humans animals too? Are we not products of our evolution just as other animals are? Why do you say that it is okay for animals to kill for the food they were naturally evolved to eat, but not for humans?
First of all, as several others have pointed out, pigs and chickens are omnivores. Perhaps if you had ever had any personal experience with these animals instead of spouting bullshit from your ivory tower, you would know this. Secondly, I don’t quite understand what you are getting at here - of course carnivores and omnivores are going to eat herbivores and other omnivores! That’s what a carnivore/omnivore does! Are you saying that it would be okay for us to kill and eat other carnivores? Because that sure sounds like what you are saying. Ever wonder why carnivores don’t, as a rule, make other carnivores a major part of their diet? Because carnivores are physiologically different from herbivores, so don’t provide the nutrients necessary for proper body development and function in an animal that evolved to eat herbivores! As a matter of fact, eating carnivore livers, at least feline livers, can kill you with Vitamin A toxicity.
Since you seem to be ignorant of how the food chain works, perhaps you would consider what happens to deer populations in areas where the natural deer predators have been wiped out and hunting is either forbidden or unpopular becauseo f people like you. Without predators to keep their numbers in check, the deer population quickly outgrows the available food supply, and many deer, especially the young and old, starve to death. I guess that in your opinion that’s a more humane death than being quickly killed and eaten.
BTW, I said I grew up on a farm - where we raised and killed our own animals for food. I’ve been there and done that, which I bet is more than you can say. And I’m not a cold-hearted bitch with no feeling for animals - I also work in a veterinary clinic, and shed more tears over animals every day than you probably have in your entire life. I don’t deny that ‘factory farming’ is usually pretty horrible, and I would gladly pay more for my meat, milk, eggs, etc., in exchange for more humane treatment of the animals. But if you want to see some truly horrible cases of abuse, experience what many, many pet owners do to there ‘beloved companions.’
And just one more little item for you - I assume that, even though you are a vegetarian, you don’t raise your own plants, process them, etc. You buy them at a store or market or some such, right? Someone else grows them for you? In order to produce all of those wonderful, healthy vegetables, the growers use some type of fertilizer, maybe even an ‘organic’ fertilizer, don’t they? Ever wondered what might be in that fertilizer? Cow shit and chicken shit, of course, provided by those animals you are so upset about - they don’t exactly go scrape that stuff up out of the pasture, you know. And of course, there’s - wait a minute, what is this stuff? Meat and bone meal? Where do you suppose that comes from? Cows, pigs, chickens, and fish? No, not all of it - those animals are too valuable as food for humans and pets. But there are all of those unwanted pets euthanized in shelters - I think Los Angeles said 200 tons there last year?. What do you supposed they do with 200 tons of dog and cat carcasses?
They ship them to a rendering plant, where they are smashed, chopped up, ground up, cooked, and turned into nice, cheap meat and bone meal to add to fertilizer!
So, before you eat any more vegetables, you might to check into what kind of fertilizer was used, and just exactly what the ingredients are in that fertilizer. Because otherwise, you’re just a damn hypocrite, stuffing his face with food grown on the dead bodies of unlucky pets.
Enjoy your next veggie burger.
IdontthinkbeforeIpostthereforeImanidiot-
re:
to quote the Bloodhound Gang
you and me baby aint nothing but mammals so lets do it like they do on the Discovery Channel.
oh, as an Aside to Scylla: Please dont equate what the PETA loonies are doing with what the Radical Anti-Abortionist’s are doing… these are 2 very different situations… they are on 2 very different layers of Hell at the moment.
from cogitoergosum:
First of all, Greenpeace is full of very misguided people also. Is everyone in the green movement whacked out? Of course not. But Greenpeace has more than its share of people who just don’t understand ecology. The main reason is because they try to assign human psychology (Greenpeace psychology at that) to the ecological world. In doing so, they ignore certain realities.
Groups like Greenpeace and PETA rely on press, attention, and contributions to try to change political agendas or personal moralities. The first thing sacrificed in this instance is science. Most of my interaction with the deep ecology movement confirms that their actual grasp of biology and ecological principles is based on political concerns and what they wish to be true rather than reality.
Their desire to improve the world is certainly noble. You think I don’t want to see the world a better place? That’s why I studied biology. I grew up on Ranger Rick, National Geographic, etc., and haven’t looked back since.
But when one’s desire to save the planet runs counter to actual ecological principles; well that is when the politics come in. Despite what one may think, organizations like the Sierra Club, Earth First!, Greenpeace, etc… are mainly political organizations. Sure there are biologists on board, but take a tally at an organizational meeting. How many biological degrees are represented? How much does that person who hands out pamphlets actually know about the subject vs. what they think they want to know, based on the ‘message.’
This is not to say that people from all walks of life can’t get involved (they should, and more power to them); only that the message is driven by “action now!” rather than learning the truth about how our natural world works.
I work with the Endangered Species Act every day. I work with the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act on a regular basis. I write Biological Assessments, and the biological portions of Environmental Assessments and Environmental Impact Statements.
It is so very frustrating to me to see people with very little grasp of ecology try to save the planet from us humans.
I was involved with a battle in Arizona trying to protect a particular endangered plant. The actions of several groups, including Forest Guardians, and the Southwest Center for Biological Diversity (whose leader is a dentist) made sure that this species was not going to make it. Of course, their intentions were to save the species, but their ignorance of general ecological principles and plant biology prevented them from seeing reality, even when real biologists/ecologists
tried to tell them over and over that their efforts were counterproductive.
I see this over and over again. People who want to ‘save the planet’ (or ‘save the animals’) latch on to any political movement they can to try to get a message out to the people. And they just don’t know jack shit about it.
I will save the arguments about human physiology, evolution, and meat consumption for another time. Other posters are addressing this (and other issues) quite well. Even if you will never agree with any of this (and that is certainly your perogative to be guided by your own personal moral code), you need to get off your high horse of morality, tell your PETA friends to stop acting like terrorists, and go read a real (i.e. not published by a political movement) ecology book.
According to yesterdays Washington Post, this wasn’t the first time something like this has happened to Dan Glickman. Or even the second.
The “awareness” comment above is mine. On the fact that the pie-thrower missed her target, Glickman quipped “It wasn’t a very well-balanced meal she threw at me.”
Jophiel
I said plants at night. During the day plants use photosynthisis. At night they burn sugars using the oxygen->carbon dioxide method. Obviously they exhale less CO2 than they exhale oxygen during the day.
Sorry for this being so short a reply, but things are being nice and hectic here at work today. New Product debug, wheee. 
I say let’s worry about all the humans first, and work our way down. Just as soon as nobody is being tortured and murdered and raped somewhere in the world, I’ll start worrying about fucking fur coats and baby cows and whatever other shit you pussies are worried about, all right?
Sorry about the delayed post… been busy today:
Cogito… it’s hard to believe your assertion that ALF people don’t hurt humans when they liberate animals used for research in human disease. I also find it hard to understand how the putative “rights” of animals that were bred for experimentation can outweigh the need to alleviate human suffering or the rights of the University of Minnesota to have buildings that are intact and free of malicious, criminally-caused damage, or, for that matter, my rights as a Minnesota taxpayer not to have my tax dollars go to repairing and replacing said damage.
Forgive me for not making the “distinction” between ALF and PETA. From what I’ve seen, ALF is a group of cowardly vandals bent on destroying the property and lives of others, and PETA is a group of clownish vandals bent on destroying the property and appetites of others. So, yes, I can see the distinction. 
Robin
What about the vegetables too? Think about the pain of all those zucchinis-being fried, mashed, or beaten to a pulp-just so humans can eat!
So much bullshit, so little time!
The main good, perhaps the only good, to come directly out of Greenpeace, PETA, etc. is the awareness they foster. It is wrong to inflict suffering. Period. If an experimenter can get needed results without inflicting pain, he is morally obligated to do so. That seems obvious to us, but the record before PETA and like groups of horrendous cruelty, frequently simple negligence, like going away for a long weekend and forgetting to water the victims. If you need 1000 white mice to test vaccine for malaria, more power to you. If you want to kill a whale simply because ambergris makes a more toney perfume, screw you, you heartless sack of shit!
And if I hear one more knuckle-walking troglodyte natter on about how “natural” meat eating is… The is nothing natural about agriculture, agriculture is by its very nature a perversion of nature. Mother Nature set the table for us, She didn’t invite 4 billion guests, that was us.
I worked for a charitable foundation for a while, used to get letters from Russians all the time beggin for research grants (you could always tell…a Bulgarian dot matrix printer is a dead giveaway…) One from a guy researching heavy metal contamination in the Volga. His problem was measuring cadmium levels in the water, his equipment would only measure 1000 times EPA recommendations, all his samples were off the scale. Stalin wasn’t Green.
If for no other reasons, appeals to common humanity failing, if we dont wise up, theres a good to fair chance we’ll die for it. And the worst of it is, we’ll fucking deserve it.
“We have met the enemy, and he is us” Pogo, Walt Kelly (may his soul find sublime peace)
Which would mean that, since we humans created agriculture, humanity itself is a perversion. Which means we should all die.
::holding door::
After you . . .
Let me share a lil story about how compassionate animal rights activists are.
My best friend’s family owned two mink farms. Believe it or not, mink are NOT cute, fuzzy lil animals. Those animals would happily rip your face off for no reason. Also, they are not “wild” mink. They were born and raised in capativity, with the intent to be killed. They had no idea how to survive in the wildreness, they did not know about bigger animals, cars, or roads. They did not know how to hunt. Basically, they had the instincts, but no experience.
So, these “Save the Animals” nuts snuck into the mink farms at night, and LET THE ANIMALS OUT! For the next 2 months, dead mink were turning up everywhere. Some of them were killed by dogs and other predators. Some were ran over. Some simply starved to death, a long, slow process. Not only were hundreds of mink basically sentenced to a long, torturous death, but the people who owned the mink made a very small profit that year. You know what that means? My friend’s family barely broke even that year, and had no extra money for Christmas etc and were one a very strict budget.
What did these animal nuts accomplish? Not only were the mink treated cruelly and unusually, but the surrounding area was polluted with dead, decomposing bodies, and infested with huge amounts of flies. And the people who counted on their furs suffered huge financial set backs. Yep, I think that’s the defintion of “humane”.
A story very similar to Pepperlandgirl’s occured in England where ALF terrorists “liberated” a mink farm. What these imbeciles didn’t realize is that the mink, as P-girl says, is a vicious predator. Within a short time the local vole population was decimated, frustrating British conservationists attempts to conserve that threatned species.
Basically no environmentalist with an ounce of sense should support these lunatics.