The 2009 NFL free agency thread

[SenorBeef]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

I don’t understand this mentality at all. What good is having a shiny new face for your franchise if he’s going to get the tar beaten out of him for three years while you retool the offensive line?

Ask David Carr how that works out.

If it takes three years to retool your offensive line, as you say, and then you draft a quarterback then, when you’re ready, and it takes him a good two years to get up to NFL speed, you’ve guaranteed your offense will suck for 5 years.

You can develop a QB and an offensive line at the same time. Getting sacked generally shouldn’t scar your QB for life - if it does, he’s probably not NFL material. David Carr was bad in part because his situation was bad - but also because he sucked. Even when he had a chance to play with better supporting casts he still sucked.

@Jimmy_Chitwood

He didn’t run at the combine. And at his pro day he ran 4.51 and a 4.47.

Anyway, let it also show that Terrell Owens ran a 4.19 and Randy Moss ran a 4.29 at 30 years old, and that Larry Fitzgerald was the third pick in the draft, making him an interesting example of how speed is overvalued in the draft at the WR position.

I have a very hard time believing Owens ran even remotely that fast, or that he’s faster than Moss. Those must’ve been very generous hand times. I don’t like hand timing anymore now that we’ve got the technology for an objective electronic timing system.

@Omniscient

The Browns need draft picks and early reports have them getting a 2nd and 5th rounder for him which is a steal. I suspect that those picks will be spent on defense, defense and more defense.

A steal for the Browns, you mean? Didn’t Shockey get a 2nd and 4th? Winslow is better than Shockey.

I’ve got mixed feelings about the Winslow trade. I like the guy - he’s one of the few people who refuses to lay down and be a loser when everyone around him in the organization was happy to do so. Every ounce of him is dedicated to winning.

On the other hand, his bike accident took what could’ve been a career of one of the all time greats to one that’s already on the decline. His knee is pretty messed up. He can’t practice during the season, he can’t do any drive blocking (a major weakness), and his career just isn’t going to last that long. He also was very vocal about wanting a new long term contract, and I wasn’t enthusiastic about giving it to him when his career might only be another 2-3 years.
There are some rumors that Edwards is next on the trading block, and that makes me uncomfortable. He’s a top 5 WR in the league even though in '08 he sucked. I’m willing to write it off as playing for the worst coach ever, an inconsistent quarterback who was made even more inconsistent by a nasty concussion, and just being part of a disfunctional organization. And he has no injury problems - his career ahead of him will be long. I want to extend him now, after a bad season, when his price will be somewhat lower and keep him for another 7 years.

And there are rumors that Shaun Rogers wants out, which infuriates me. He’s the best player on the team, and possibly the best defensive player in the league. He’s amazing. Apparently Mangini snubbed him twice before they ever met - they were in the same place at the same time and Mangini didn’t even bother to say hi. If so, what a fucking moron. There are some other rumors floating around - that the Browns layed off a friend of his, and some other stuff I can’t recall.

I don’t know how many productive years he has left, but if they let him get away because they mishandled his situation that’s going to piss me off more than anything else.

[SenorBeef]

Incidentally, I just noticed the Bucs have 4 Browns castoffs now who were probably underrated. Jeff Faine who’s a pretty good center but was a bad fit for the style of offense we ran in that time, Antonio Bryant who I always thought was a very good receiver and vastly underrated who we should’ve kept, Luke McCown who never really had a chance here but seemed promising as a developing QB, and of course Winslow.

[drm]

Cheifs get Cassel for the 34th overall pick.

[Omniscient]

@drm

Cheifs get Cassel for the 34th overall pick.

For just a 2nd round pick!!! Holy shit what a steal. Seems like Pioli exploited his past relationships there and got a favor from the Pats. Now, I realize that he’s only had one year of success and that there’s a strong potential that he’s the NFL equivalent of a system QB, not to mention hella expensive, but the market had to be better than one pick in the 30s. The Chiefs were talking about going with Thigpen after a strong performance last season but if you get Cassel for that you have to do it.

Wonder of Thigpen will be traded now, I bet they could get a late 2nd or 3rd rounder for him and basically end up even.

@SenorBeef

A steal for the Browns, you mean? Didn’t Shockey get a 2nd and 4th? Winslow is better than Shockey.

Shockey was the exact same deal, a 2nd and 5th in this years draft (albeit slightly better overall because the Saints were worse than the Bucs this year). Though, using the conventional wisdom draft picks a year in the future are depreciated by a round so Shockey could be said to have been traded for the equivalent of a 3rd and 6th. I said that was a steal for the Giants then and I think this is a steal for the Browns. Both teams are getting good players and both team will benefit, but considering the baggage, age and price tags the picks are much more coveted. As you note Winslow is on the decline and is going to demand a big contract while he still can, so if the Browns can turn him into a couple contributors on defense it’s a great move.

@HongKongFooey

I caught the Bears a couple of times on NFL Replay and I just thought he was playing outside because of injuries or something. Washington wouldn’t be any good in the slot I don’t think; one thing he did pick up from Hines Ward though is downfield blocking. He laid a few good licks this year for his size. I’d try to get the ball to Hester in space and get guys like Washington out in front like a punt return. Scary thought trying to defend that all game while still guarding against the deep ball.

Sadly no, it wasn’t due to injury that he was out there, that was their plan all along. Lloyd was their Y, he was too slow to be the X (or the Y frankly) and Booker was the Z/slot due to his bulk, precise routes and hands. Hester was the only guy with speed and therefore he was always intended to be the X. A bad plan from the outset, but one they were forced into because of the miserable personnel department.

If Washington is a great downfield blocker, and Steelers WRs usually are, that makes him really nice for the Bears. Not so much so that he can block for Hester but because he can block downfield for Forte. The Bears tried for a while to get Hester the ball on little bubble screens and quick outs but they just weren’t very good at it. It was usually predictable and the ball took to long to get to him when split wide, plus Bears WRs were notoriously bad at getting off bump coverage so we saw nothing but that all season long which killed the quick pass game.

[Jman]

ESPN actually reported that the Chiefs got BOTH Cassel AND Vrabel for just that single 2nd round pick. THAT is a steal.

[Omniscient]

@Jman

ESPN actually reported that the Chiefs got BOTH Cassel AND Vrabel for just that single 2nd round pick. THAT is a steal.

Yeah. When Vrabel was originally moved it said he was traded for an “undisclosed” draft pick. Presumably it was undisclosed because it was also part of this deal. Frankly that’s shocking to me, though Vrabel might not have really been worth much more than a 6th or 7th rounder considering his salary.

I feel like there has to be another show left to drop. Maybe Tony Gonzales to the Pats? That would make sense.

[Omniscient]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

I don’t know if I’d call it suspect. Revis has certainly lived up to his draft slot.

Looks like that CB situation wasn’t so solid.

The Jets continued in their attempt to become Redskins North and added Lito Sheppard in a trade with the Eagles for a middle round pick n 2010 and a conditional 2011 pick. Pretty small price to pay so long as they can afford his salary.

[Least_Original_User_Name_Ever]

@SenorBeef

If it takes three years to retool your offensive line, as you say, and then you draft a quarterback then, when you’re ready, and it takes him a good two years to get up to NFL speed, you’ve guaranteed your offense will suck for 5 years.

You can develop a QB and an offensive line at the same time. Getting sacked generally shouldn’t scar your QB for life - if it does, he’s probably not NFL material. David Carr was bad in part because his situation was bad - but also because he sucked. Even when he had a chance to play with better supporting casts he still sucked.

I have a very hard time believing Owens ran even remotely that fast, or that he’s faster than Moss. Those must’ve been very generous hand times. I don’t like hand timing anymore now that we’ve got the technology for an objective electronic timing system.

A steal for the Browns, you mean? Didn’t Shockey get a 2nd and 4th? Winslow is better than Shockey.

I’ve got mixed feelings about the Winslow trade. I like the guy - he’s one of the few people who refuses to lay down and be a loser when everyone around him in the organization was happy to do so. Every ounce of him is dedicated to winning.

On the other hand, his bike accident took what could’ve been a career of one of the all time greats to one that’s already on the decline. His knee is pretty messed up. He can’t practice during the season, he can’t do any drive blocking (a major weakness), and his career just isn’t going to last that long. He also was very vocal about wanting a new long term contract, and I wasn’t enthusiastic about giving it to him when his career might only be another 2-3 years.
There are some rumors that Edwards is next on the trading block, and that makes me uncomfortable. He’s a top 5 WR in the league even though in '08 he sucked. I’m willing to write it off as playing for the worst coach ever, an inconsistent quarterback who was made even more inconsistent by a nasty concussion, and just being part of a disfunctional organization. And he has no injury problems - his career ahead of him will be long. I want to extend him now, after a bad season, when his price will be somewhat lower and keep him for another 7 years.

And there are rumors that Shaun Rogers wants out, which infuriates me. He’s the best player on the team, and possibly the best defensive player in the league. He’s amazing. Apparently Mangini snubbed him twice before they ever met - they were in the same place at the same time and Mangini didn’t even bother to say hi. If so, what a fucking moron. There are some other rumors floating around - that the Browns layed off a friend of his, and some other stuff I can’t recall.

I don’t know how many productive years he has left, but if they let him get away because they mishandled his situation that’s going to piss me off more than anything else.

Now you understand what made Big Baby so infuriating for us Lions fans. If we had him, we wouldn’t have gone 0-16.

Speaking of the Lions, they traded Jon Kitna to the Cowboys for Anthony Henry, signed Maurice Morris and Eric King, and signed Bryant Johnson. Relatively active, I’d say, although nothing super exciting. It’s been productive.

[Omniscient]

@Least_Original_User_Name_Ever

Speaking of the Lions, they traded Jon Kitna to the Cowboys for Anthony Henry, signed Maurice Morris and Eric King, and signed Bryant Johnson. Relatively active, I’d say, although nothing super exciting. It’s been productive.

Pretty good work I think. All young guys with upside and reasonable price tags. They address needs without a huge risk of a bust or a salary cap issue.

Wonder if Johnson’s signing means Nate Washington is out.

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

@Omniscient

Looks like that CB situation wasn’t so solid.

The Jets continued in their attempt to become Redskins North and added Lito Sheppard in a trade with the Eagles for a middle round pick n 2010 and a conditional 2011 pick. Pretty small price to pay so long as they can afford his salary.

Yeah, you always have to keep in mind that if you’re getting a starter-quality player the Eagles are letting go, he’s committed one of two unforgivable sins: being 30 years old, or wanting money. Notice that neither one of those necessarily has anything to do with playing ability. As far as I can tell, Lito Sheppard’s as good a player as he ever was. Certainly better than Joselio Hanson. What they gave up probably amounts to just about nothing, and they get a good to very good player still in his (latish) prime.

Interesting side note to that Cassel trade – McDaniels wanted Cassel to come play for him in Denver, so Denver was looking to send Cutler to Tampa, Tampa to send picks to New England, and Cassel to Denver. Except it fell through and Cutler found out about it. Now he wants out. Fascinating stuff, and Cutler’s not the kind of guy to put this behind him.

[Least_Original_User_Name_Ever]

@Omniscient

Pretty good work I think. All young guys with upside and reasonable price tags. They address needs without a huge risk of a bust or a salary cap issue.

Wonder if Johnson’s signing means Nate Washington is out.

The Maurice Morris move is a nice one. I’m a big fan of that. Anthony Henry is decent, and for a low price tag. Bryant Johnson is a middle of the road receiver. I’m cool with them.

[Oakminster]

The Saints have locked up Jonathan Vilma with a five year contract. Glad to hear that.

Biggest rumor is they’re looking at Ladainian Tomlinson. I dunno about that one. Thinking he isn’t going to regain his top form, and may cost more than he’s worth…like Shockey did. On the up side, if he does get back to even 90% of his best, and if the Saints will actually run the ball enough to matter, he’d be a great weapon and open up things for Reggie.

[Boozahol_Squid_P.I]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Holy shit!

I’m not entirely sure I understand the move- we’ve got a solid second round pick starting at TE (Alex Smith), and three relatively big-money free agents behind him (Ben Troupe, John Gilmore, Jerramy Stevens) but it sure as hell adds a new dimension to our offense.

Maybe they’ll just split him out wide a lot like the Colts do with Dallas Clark and run a three tight end set.

Or they’ll just finish the conversion of Winslow to a full-time wide-out. He’s completely worthless in runblocking, and too valuable a pass-catcher to keep in on passing downs.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@SenorBeef

…Luke McCown who never really had a chance here but seemed promising as a developing QB, and of course Winslow.

My gut says that McCown is going to be the starter this year, and guess what? I’m thrilled to bits. He ought to have been starting last year when Garcia was benched in Week 1 instead of Griese; he played 3-4 games in 2007 and was terrific.

@SenorBeef

If it takes three years to retool your offensive line, as you say, and then you draft a quarterback then, when you’re ready, and it takes him a good two years to get up to NFL speed, you’ve guaranteed your offense will suck for 5 years.

You can develop a QB and an offensive line at the same time. Getting sacked generally shouldn’t scar your QB for life - if it does, he’s probably not NFL material. David Carr was bad in part because his situation was bad - but also because he sucked. Even when he had a chance to play with better supporting casts he still sucked.

This is true, I suppose, but as I’ve noted in previous threads, I’m just not a fan of spending first-rounders on quarterbacks, especially in a shitty year at the position.

@Omniscient

I feel like there has to be another show left to drop. Maybe Tony Gonzales to the Pats? That would make sense.

Not really; the Pats have a Pro-Bowl caliber tight end in Ben Watson, assuming he can stay healthy, and I don’t understand why the Chiefs would bother bringing in Cassell if they were going to lose their best receiver. Dwayne Bowe is good but he’s not a guy who can be a team’s passing offense all by himself like TO or Andre Johnson.

I’m also pretty disappointed in Pioli; a 2nd-rounder for Cassell is certainly a bargain, but I really think Tyler Thigpen deserves a chance to start. 2,600 passing yards and 18 touchdowns in 11 1/2 starts… not to mention nearly 400 rushing yards.

@Jimmy_Chitwood

Interesting side note to that Cassel trade – McDaniels wanted Cassel to come play for him in Denver, so Denver was looking to send Cutler to Tampa, Tampa to send picks to New England, and Cassel to Denver. Except it fell through and Cutler found out about it. Now he wants out. Fascinating stuff, and Cutler’s not the kind of guy to put this behind him.

Bizarre stuff. The Broncos have an ideal quarterback situation and the first thing McDaniels does is try and fuck with it. If this is anything to go by, Broncos fans are going to be wishing Shanahan had never been fired in a year or two.

@Least_Original_User_Name_Ever

The Maurice Morris move is a nice one. I’m a big fan of that. Anthony Henry is decent, and for a low price tag. Bryant Johnson is a middle of the road receiver. I’m cool with them.

Bryant Johnson is a stuck-on-the-side-of-the-road receiver. He didn’t do much in Arizona even with Boldin and Fitzgerald drawing all the coverage, and he did less in San Francisco. He’s certainly not an upgrade over Shaun McDonald or even Mike Furrey.

@Boozahol_Squid_P.I

Or they’ll just finish the conversion of Winslow to a full-time wide-out. He’s completely worthless in runblocking, and too valuable a pass-catcher to keep in on passing downs.

Fine by me. Even if he never matches his 2007 numbers in a Bucs uniform he’ll still be an upgrade over our current potential #2 wideouts.

[A_Spoonful_of_Awesome]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

<snip>
Bizarre stuff. The Broncos have an ideal quarterback situation and the first thing McDaniels does is try and fuck with it. If this is anything to go by, Broncos fans are going to be wishing Shanahan had never been fired in a year or two.

Being a Die-Hard-With-A-Vengeance Bronco fan, I was a bit vexed they let Shanny go in the first place, but I was willing to keep an open mind and see what this new kid can do. That said, this one makes me want to drop kick koala bears. Sure, Cutler is young and still has a bit of growing to do but how do you even ENTERTAIN exchanging a proven, young, super-talented pro bowl quarterback for an overhyped backup who had a single year of quasi, playoff-less success? Just because his 7 year backup didn’t fuck up as much as he was projected to, McDaniels suddenly wants to replace a landmark player he’s never even seen from the same sideline? Sure Cassell had an ok year, (not great, but ok) playing for the best coach in the best offensive system in recent NFL history (which was Belichick’s brain-child, NOT McD’s) but I promise you with every lepton of my being that Cassell will do a fantastic flop a’ la Derek Anderson in KC while McD has jaded and possibly driven out our lone chance of playoff contention since the Elway era. Way to make an impression, coach. :rolleyes:

This whole thing throws a dark shadow on the whole Brian Dawkins signing.

Effen Broncos.

[A_Spoonful_of_Awesome]

The mind baffles on…

I just read (and am too lazy/annoyed to bother linking) that the Broncos are STILL in trade talks with the Lions and/or Bucs for Cutler.
I… I have not the words.

Lord help fuzzy bears everywhere cuz baby, I’m goin’ Koala kickin’.

[HongKongFooey]

@A_Spoonful_of_Awesome

The mind baffles on…

You have my sympathies. Maybe it’s overblown media stuff but if true…wow.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@A_Spoonful_of_Awesome

I just read (and am too lazy/annoyed to bother linking) that the Broncos are STILL in trade talks with the Lions and/or Bucs for Cutler.

I suppose we might be persuaded to take him off your hands for the right price… you know, as a favor.

[Least_Original_User_Name_Ever]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

I suppose we might be persuaded to take him off your hands for the right price… you know, as a favor.

The Lions should have drafted Cutler in the first place.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Least_Original_User_Name_Ever

The Lions should have drafted Cutler in the first place.

If the Lions had taken a quarterback in that draft I suspect it would have been Leinart. Anyway, Ernie Sims is one of the incredibly few Lions first-round picks who actually turned out to be a good player.

Count your blessings!