Hmph. The action taken was entirely appropriate. Even lenient. Hell, he could’ve surrendered any time he wanted to. The people in the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and UA Flt 93 had no such option.
And, as far as “people like OBL”…if they keep exporting terrorism, we’ll keep exporting cruise missiles and JDAMS.
You’d have a point, if I wasn’t responding to the claim that people celebrating the death of OBL was bad and would encourage terrorism or what have you. But I was.
So you don’t.
I’ve seen NUMEROUS times on facebook and message boards already quotes like this one (actual quote):
Pointing out that “Arabs dancing on 9-11” [all disclaimers in place that not all Arabs did/not all dancers were Arabs “were celebrating the brutal murder of 3,000+ people while this is celebrating the killing of one (1) person who was responsible for the mass murder of 3,000 people and would loved to have been responsible for many more.” You wouldn’t think that this would be a hard distinction to grasp but somehow it is.
Another favorite that I’ve seen on facebook is this from Tolkien:
I got unfriended by a woman because I responded
I think what most p.o.d her is how many “Likes” I got before she unfriended me.
I might have been more inclined to agree if we were celebrating the death of a mean elf.
And there are even people, not all of them Muslim, bitching about the burial at sea. “It’s against religious tradition!” Get the fuck over your self righteus selves! Dying in a collision of a plane and a building or land and having your still living body destroyed in an inferno is against my beliefs and I don’t even have a religion.
The bodies of the Nazis who were hanged at Nuremberg were cremated wearing nothing but the rope that hanged them. (Even Göring, who cheated the hangman with cyanide, was cremated with a rope). The ashes thrown into a river. Mussolini’s was damned near made to dance the Can Can on strings. Osama bin Laden deserved no better but got it anyway. I think the fact they even tried to give a respectful burial is way above and beyond anything that bin Laden did and I hope the official U.S. government response to anybody still offended or protesting the burial at sea begins with a “Suck” and ends with an anatomical noun and has the adjectives “big” and “bacony” somewhere in between.
The good news is that you were unfriended by someone who quotes Tolkien.
Agreed, the viral speed this meme has spread at is surprising… only slightly surpassed by how idiotic it is.
It’s not like mourning and dancing in the streets and straining to come up with the most violent imagery possible to explain just how hard we hate that guy are the only two options. People are like making videos of themselves getting crunk and chanting USA like we won the World Cup or some shit.
What I’m saying is that, if you’re one of the people turning this into a holiday and a cause for actual joy, you’re not doing it because it was fair that he got killed because he killed other people. Whether or not it was just that he got killed is a different question from whether or not we’re delighted by it. If we’re celebrating this, it’s because our bloodlust got satisfied, not because a sense of moral rightness called for Bin Laden not to go free. We were pissed, we caused some destruction, it felt good, and we’re rollicking in it – somehow the combination of a bad thing happening and us retaliating has us feeling better than if the bad thing hadn’t happened in the first place. The math only works there if you account for the fact that we actually enjoyed the violence. And that’s a road we generally consider to be a bad one to find somebody walking on. It’s one of many things that we condemn about, for instance, terrorist organizations: conflating their intellectual sense that they’ve been aggrieved with the visceral satisfaction of killing somebody for it.
On the subject of we gruesome blood-lusting Americans, there were some interesting letters to the editor of the New York Times today.
While these were not sentiments expressed by most writers, gems included one correspondent complaining about Osama’s death being “reciprocal murder”, plus the following (from a person who must be the biggest dingbat in Maryland):
*"While the unseemly chest thumping over the death of Osama bin Laden demonstrates that the vengeful blood lust of the American people is alive and well, such gruesome triumphalism seems particularly overblown in light of the fact that it took the United States government, with its enormous resources, nearly 10 years and billions of dollars to locate and kill one man.
Even more significantly, unless and until the United States and its Western allies fundamentally change their policies and stop trying to impose their will and their values on other nations and cultures, they will continue to generate the hatred and resentment that give rise to terrorism."*
If I have to choose between “gruesome triumphalists” and self-flagellating ninnies, I’ll take the former every time.
No, it’s pretty much the exact same question. Bin Laden’s assassination was just, and folks are cheering for the fact that a mass murdering lunatic who deserved killing, was killed.
Have you heard any formulations, at all, that didn’t contain the tacit or explicit “The bastard deserved to be killed…” before “…and so we’re glad he was killed?” Have you heard anybody who’s said that they didn’t know who he was, or didn’t think killing him was just, but they’re glad that he was killed?
You can try to make this about “bloodlust”, but it’s not. It’s about ending the life of the leader of a terrorist organization that butchered thousands of American civilians, deliberately, and with malice aforethought.
And about the possibility of extracting ourselves from that part of the world with something that feels vaguely like “winning”.
Did you think I was talking about your feelings in particular? Because if you’re speaking on behalf of everybody who I’ve seen celebrating this, I’m not sure what to tell you. There are even posts in this thread proudly owning the bloodlust angle.
I’m also not sure how it matters whether people say he deserved to die before they say they’re happy he died. That can’t be relevant, considering that pretty much nobody, Bin Laden included, would say they killed somebody who didn’t deserve it. The point is that taking pleasure from the killing is entirely removed from the question of justice.
Again:
So I take it that you haven’t heard any such formulations?
Again:
So whether or not it was just is precisely the issue, and you explicitly tried to differentiate it from the issue of people’s reactions. If people’s point is that he deserved to die, then obviously, they’re saying that it was just to kill him. That’s the whole point, that they’re glad that justice was done and they’re not in the streets cheering simply because blood was spilled. You can claim that taking pleasure in the fact that a terrorist mass-murderer is dead is completely removed from the issue of justice, but since you can’t find me a single person who’s said or implied that the killing wasn’t just, you’re just blowing smoke.
Or can you find anybody (let alone a significant number of people) who’ve said such a thing?
You actually believe people are happier now than if 9/11 hadn’t happened?
The ones who lost their friends and family, the ones now dealing with the resulting wars?
If anyone should feel bad about killing something, it is you. For killing sarcasm.
People don’t pick up on sarcasm anymore because there is always someone like you who is seriously crazier than the sarcastic can pretend to be.
I’ve been saying people who view a body at a funeral are ghouls. Families of victims who attend a death penalty trial and celebrate a guilty verdict are ghouls. Getting “closure” by seeing a killer finally brought to justice is just an excuse for death worship. Americans are partially to blame for being in the awkward situation of wanting the murderer of 3000 of their fellow citizens not to get away with it.
But I can’t compete with you.
I never considered saying they might be happy part of their family was murdered, because it would give them the later opportunity to express their innate bloodlust. True craziness triumphs over sarcasm again.
Finnagain, I can’t make it any clearer than what you’ve repeatedly quoted. They’re different questions. One can think that a killing is just and not revel in it. One can revel in unjust killing. They’re different.
Yet again, since you seem to be ignoring it and I can’t quite figure out why, and this time I will underline the most relevant portions:
Can you show anybody, at all, who hasn’t been supportive of this assassination because it was a just and good thing to do, and instead is just cheering it on because they lust for blood? Anybody, at all?
Yes, and in this case they are thinking that the killing was just, and reveling in the fact that justice was finally served. Claiming that’s not what’s happening is a defensible position if you can find anybody who hasn’t been supportive of this assassination because it was a just and good thing to do, and instead is just cheering it on because they lust for blood. Otherwise, what we actually have are people who are happy that justice was served, and you’re claiming that it’s really because they’re bloodthirsty, in the teeth of the facts and without a shred of evidence to back up your claim.
No, I can’t refute your refutation of an argument I never made. People are celebrating Bin Laden’s death. Those people also think he deserved to die. Therefore, nobody is cheering it on simply because they wanted some blood to be spilled.
Yes, you haven’t shown a single person who’s acting out of “bloodlust” rather than happy that justice was done. I guess I can’t get you to address the issue either, and you’ll just use your “bloodlust!” mantra. Ah well. Can’t say I didn’t try.
No, I don’t think that. I don’t think the ones who lost friends and family are the ones most likely to be in a party mood because the guy’s dead. But I do think some people enjoy the fighting more than they’d enjoy peace. One example of one such person is Hyperelastic.
The ersatz King quote
is still spreading like wildfire even now that it’s been illegitimized. Admittedly it’s believable he would say it- it’s not like those emails where Mr. Rogers says to kill Communists or whatever- but still surprising.
I prefer to lay back in my La-Z-Boy and cheer while others do my killing for me. Barcaloungers seem so, I dunno, 1950s or something.
Every once in awhile I do emerge from the recliner, go out into the garden and squash some Japanese beetles, just to show those foreign intruders a thing or two.
Now that’s bloodlust.
remember pearl harbor and stuff