The Answer to this Mess

Great Debates
1

It’s simple. Our buildings were attacked because of our continued military presence in Saudi Arabia and our military and financial support for the state of Israel. And we will continue to be attacked until we change the situation.

Those are apparently huge thorns in the side of a very vocal, very motivated Islamic people. And so they attack our country. With increasingly sophisticated and effective weapons. And our response is to blow up their goat sheds with precision bombs. This war on terrorism is a war that cannot be won. For every one you kill, three will take his place. Remember Vietnam? Better yet, remember Afghanistan and the Russians? In this case, discretion is the better part of valor.

Stop spending billions to drop bombs, play spy games and win the hearts of the people. It doesn’t work. Instead use that money to make America energy-independent of that region and get the fuck out. Use the money for insulating all houses, for tax credits for alternative energy sources, and so on.

And use that money to relocate any Israeli citizen who wishes to leave. The problem with Isreal is that they put it in the wrong neighborhood - surrounded by enemies. Whatever realtor was consulted forgot the prime directive- location, location, location.

So the US should notify Israel that it will no longer provide military or economic aid. Those Israelis who understand the situation (1)they are surrounded by enemies who want to wipe them out; and (2) a plot of sand ain’t worth dying over- will make the rational choice and come on over to the U.S., where we have plenty of dry sand. Hell, we could probably even give them a homeland in Eastern California or Nevada. Get the casino guys to build “Jerusalem, Jerusalem” even bigger and better than the original.

The bottom line is we should be weaning ourselves off the oil tit of those crazy Arabian wetnurses. We should also do the Israelis a favor and take them out of harms way. The we should get out of that area, sit back, and watch those crazy bastards turn on each other.

So, what do you think America? The lines are open.

2

I fully agree about getting the oil monkey off our back. I think it’s so glaringly obvious that it should be part of the solution that I am surprised and dismayed that the subject isn’t getting more press. Dump the tax dollars into the fuel cell or other alternative power sources and pull out of the area. As I see it, they’ve bitten the hand that feeds them.

As for the Israeli issue, there’s much more to it than a plot of land, and the solution isn’t an easy one.

3

Thanks Reason - I’m glad someone finally came up with a simple, elegant and easy-to-implement solution to the whole mess. I am also pleased to see you have kidly offerred to relocate up to 5 million Israelis to California or Nevada - nice touch.

When you have some time, can you look into that whole Catholic vs. Protestant deal in Ireland? And call the Pope - he’s been praying for someone like you to come along…

4

Oh my God!
That’s it! Why did we not think of this before?
Thank you, thank you, O voice of Reason.

[sub]Is it just me, or does this sound awfully familiar?..[/sub]

5

You have a better solution? Like shaking your head in dismay while the Israelis and Arab states kill each other’s citizens while we bankroll both sides. Or cluck disapprovingly when a stinger missile we gave to the Taliban is used to shoot down our own aircraft. The only answer is to get out. Rather than leaving the Israelis to be exterminated (do they have enough nuclear weapons to kill ALL the people in the enemy states?), it seems only fair to toss them a lifeline on our way out.

6

tradesilicon: ROFLOL

7

Insane though it sounds, if you take the long term view, something like this probably will happen one day. There’s only a finite amount of oil in the world so one day it will run out.

The main reason we support Israel is so we have a presence we can trust in amongst the oil-owning Arabs. But once the oil goes, after another hundred years or so of supporting Israel as a matter of principle, people are gonna start asking questions like why exactly are we causing all this trouble for ourselves when we don’t even need the oil anymore?

The other reason we support Israel is because we think the Jews ought to have a homeland. Jews have been persecuted throughout history and they have been unable to do anything about it because theyve never had a homeland - an area of land they can defend. Now they’ve got one and they aint gonna give it up lightly. So this becomes a moral question - should we stand by the Jews as a matter of principle?

Personally I think we should but, once the oil goes, this argument is going to start to look weaker and weaker.

I suspect that, even if we did leave the region and even if the Jews did abandon Israel, before long the Arab countries would be begging us to go back in in order to help solve their own internecine conflicts. Remember it was just a useless desert before the Israelis turned it into a going concern.

Im sure the Aussie outback could accommodate 5 million people and no one would even notice.

8

The problem is that once you cave in and do what they want, you have effectively signalled that terrorism is a way that the poor of the world can get what they want from the US. It’s like that whole appeasement thing. You won’t stop the attacks, you’ll just prompt more once they see that they can get you to concede on issues just through terrorism. That’s really the whole problem

Self-sufficiency is a good idea, though. I support that. But that is going to be horribly expensive. Think about it, you’d need to put in a heckuva lot of solar panels and extra insulation and whatnot. I think that should be seen as a long-term goal, not a short-term.

9

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Why do people keep saying this when the “war on terrorism” is an unprecedented experience??? :confused: :rolleyes:

10

Let’s say we decide to do what Reason suggests. Okay, so after spending incredible amounts of tim and money on research and construction, we don’t need OPEC’s oil anymore. How do we know the fanatics won’t start complaining about how we seriously slowed down the economy over there by not byuing their oil?

11

There’s just as much oil here in Alberta as there is in the middle east… wanna buy some?

12

It does sound familiar. However, if I remember correctly, it was Brian Bunnyhurt who had the similair line of thinking and voice of reason got banned for messing with Bunnyhurt.

13

It was Novoicemorereasonable that got banned.

Can we afford not to dismantle Israel?

However, I see a whole different spin to the two posters. If Reason moves into Armegeddon and Christian zealots, then I’ll have to change my mind.

14

By the way, the whole less-reliance-on-oil angle is already being discussed in this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=92856

I agree with those who say the solution proposed by the OP here is way too simplistic…but the idea that less reliance on oil would be a good thing (for many, many reasons) is undoubtably true.

15

Our simple approach to the unwinnable Vietnam War [after several years of killing American young men for no reason] was to declare victory and leave [albeit with a few loyal NVA soldiers clinging to the chopper skids]. Russia’s simple approach to their Afganistan experiment was the same.

I ask those who suggest my proposal is ‘too simplistic’ to provide their complicated solution to extinguish the hatred which has bred the fanatical acts which we continue to witness in the country on a daily, escalating basis.

16

Thanks for posting the link, jshore.

17

Evacuate us for our own good? Gee, Reasonm that’s a generous offer.

But no thanks.

Let’s see - you’ll have to pay us quite a lot of money to leave. About a quarter of a million per family, plus reimbursement for factories, businesses, universities, hotels, banks, etc., etc. What you think a country is just people? We’ve been working on our little piece of land for over 50 years now, and we’ve made quite a few investments.

All in all, you’ll probably be able to keep it under a trillion dollars. You’re a rich country; you can handle it.

Of course, that leaves the question of what you’ll give us in return. Of course, we can’t ask for some rich state like California or New York. That wouldn’t be fair. No, we’ll take something a bit more modest, like, let’s see - decent climate, marine access… how about Oregon? Yeah, we’ll take that.

So how long do you think it will take for you to clear it out? I mean, you have to give then time to pack (some form of compensation would be nice). After all, we wouldn’t want to be conquering some indigenous people - that would sort of defeat the purpose of moving, wouldn’t it? And you have to give us our independence; that’s the whole point of this deal. Remember?

So it’s all set - you emty out Oregon, we’ll move it our tanks and planes, set up a border, maybe some free trade agreement, and voila! Two happy, sovereign nations!

…

You should disregard the previous paragraph; I was merely being faecitious. I was just trying to illustrate the absurdity of this discussion.

In fact, the premise of this debate is not only absurd, it’s also slightly insulting. Israel is not a paid subsidiary of the United States; we’re not sitting here in the dark, moaning and whining, waiting for the next paycheck from Uncle Sugardaddy Sam. We won’t blow away like a fart in the wind the moment Ill Patrone in Washington withdraws his support. Your help is nice, sure, and we’re eternally grateful for it - but do you really think you’re the only thing standing between us and the Syrian bayonets?

Got Arrogance?

We can do very well without you, thank you very much. In fact, we did very well without you, up until 1970 or so (and that was only to counter the much larger support our enemies were recieving from the U.S.S.R), winning wars, feeding our people, building a vibrant economy. We did it once, we can do it again. Hell, there’s nothing we really need from you. Most of our military equipyment we can make ourselves, and the rest we can find somewhere - France, Germany, the East Block . Hell, you cut off the F-16sm we can buy MiG-29sn for 1/10th the price3 and turn them into the best fighter jets in the world. Yeah, stuff will be hard, at first. I’ll grant you that.

But we’ll manage. We’ve got something good here, and we’re not going to give it up. Frankly - and I mean this as a friend - we’ll probably outlast you.
…
But maybe I’m wrong. Maybe we do need a country to support us. It’s a possibility, sure. However…

The U.S. is not the only game in town. If we need to, we can find another nation to support us. How about, say, China? That sounds good. They need a secure toehold in the Middle East, and we have a lot to offer them in terms of technological know-how, especially military technology. Actually, we may be better off with China - their resources, our brains and ingenuity, it could really work.

Of course, that would hurt the U.S., so it would never happen. We’d never do that to a friend.
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[after preview]

And if Vietnam had been located between Maryland and Virginia on the eastern seaboard? I’d bet you’d still be there, killing by the thousand.

18

If America is attacked by nuclear weapons I will cry whenever I think of this thread and how Reason is probably representative of a huge number of Americans.

19

Hi, portajon, how you been? Have you been keeping yourself busy since your banning?

20

Alessan by all means, buddy-up with China. Let them get into the barrel for a while. Let them be the lightning rod for everyones anger and frustration. You have my blessing.