Can we afford not to dismantle Israel?

As many of you know, the modern state of Israel was slowly re-established in the last century after the fall of the Ottoman Empire with the help of Western colonizers for whatever religious sentiments they may have had at the time. The problem now is that over 75% of the known oil supply in the world is now concentrated in the hands of devout Muslims around the world who disagree with this decision, and charge us accordingly.

Today, we are faced with negotiating with a hostile cartel over our economic lifeblood, and continue to fund Israel directly with arms and cash. Most of our trade deficits are due to the price of oil and all of our manufactured goods and services has the price of oil factored in.

Furthermore, the idea of Armageddon, a totally destructive fantasy war to signal the end-of-times, is hoped by most Christians to be soon staged somewhere in the middle-east featuring the righteous (them) versus the forces of evil. Is this not the greatest blunder in colonial history? What is the best resolution?

Personally, I believe as long as Israel exists like it does today, zealous Christians will fan the flames to war and we will continue to suffer embargoes like the one in 1973 in conjunction with a pan-middle-eastern war that same year. I consider it an ethical duty to gradually relocate all Jewish people in Israel to wherever they want to go (which is already happening for those who can afford to leave). Also, I would propose making a UN neutral zone for religious pilgrimage/worship at the shrines on different days. Otherwise I fear that terrorist atomic bombs will trigger a long-term crusade/conflagation that will make Vietnam look like a mere conflict again.

As usual, I favor no religious viewpoint or reasoning in this discussion.


Methinks you are a little mixed up about just who fights at Armageddon.

And what will you say when they let you know that wherever they want to go happens to be in your back yard? Or better yet, that they are happy just right where they are?

…and since they have nukes and one of the best damned armies in the world, I have doubts about ANYONE’S ability to move them. (just not gonna happen man)

If you happened to try, I have this sneaking feeling that Isreal would find an ethical duty to shorten your life span to right about NOW. (its almost always a bad thing when others effect your life with THEIR ethical duties, and vice versa)

Ohhhh yeah…

The knowledge you display of the major world religions and the supposed end of the world is astonishing. I can’t believe that no one thought of this before. All those pesky Christians who are wishing for the last battle will be so calmed by putting Jerusalem under the protection of the UN. Those guys just love anything that smacks of one world gov’t.

Isreal also loves the UN. They have been so supportive the last 30 years with all those condemnations of the Arab countries while never passing resolution after resolution against against Isreal.

Your cure is worse than the disease.

Um…didn’t the state of Israel get created because large populations of Jews want to relocate specifically there?

I think the Jews of the world are a bit tired of being “relocated” whenever their presence might inconvenience others.

Please provide some evidence of this.


My backyard? This is odd, I was thinking of having the Arabs help buy them apartments to live in.

I am ignorant of the end-of-times? I hope so. Please do tell.

Surely the UN can guard a holy site for tourists and help sell the lemonade, I don’t fear they will take over the world government from there.

What are your solutions? I agree that idea of moving Israel is ludicrous to orthodox Jews, but I think funding a state for them is ludicrous too. I don’t like my tax dollars used for zealot religious purposes. Where is Pat and Jerry when you really need them to cry welfare fraud?

Hey! I remember a guy in the 30’s that wanted the same re-location thing.

  • only one small problem: Israel might consider its dismantlement to be a bad idea.

So you advocate “dismantling” your only Mid East ally because of market forces ? In effect, giving a lot of Arab groupings what they’d otherwise have to fight bloody wars for, in the hope that they’ll lower their oil prices in gratitude. That won’t happen. You’ll in effect be saying “We’re so desperate for oil that we’ll gladly screw our old allies to keep the price down”. So what happens the next time the US & OPEC disagrees ? Yup, another embargo.

If you’d rather not be dependent on OPEC, reduce your oil consumption and/or jack up domestic production.

Cite, please ? Over 50% of Christians are hoping for a Middle East Armageddon ? I think not.

I don’t understand this. Are you calling Israel a colony ? Well, an old one, perhaps - the British gave up Palestine in 1948, IIRC. But your solution sure sounds like colonialism at its worst.

  • and what would be the ethical duty towards those who’d rather not leave ? People have been emigrating to Israel for the last 50 years, no ?

This might actually make sense. Although I don’t believe the Arab world at large would consider the UN a neutral arbiter, but some supernational entity wouldn’t be a bad idea. Didn’t Clancy write about this, btw. ?

Ditching allies is a bad, bad idea. Ditching allies for something as low as oil prices is criminal.

Trying to “dismantle” a well-armed and battle-proven nation is not easy. I for one think you can count upon the Israeli Armed Forces to give it their best, and that’s pretty damned good. Israel is not going to roll over, and they have nukes.

Sure, there are serious problems in the region, and they need to be solved. But this is a solution many times worse than the problem.


Israelis have immigrated by the millions to New York and Canada. I wasn’t saying it was an official program, just following their opportunities.

Armageddon is perhaps apporoaching faster than I thought, seeing as this bleeding-heart liberal Scandinavian agrees with Freedom2

S. Norman

And New Yorkers have been emigrating to Israel. B.F.D.

Prague, Czech Republic was completely overrun by Americans last time I was there, does that mean we should relocate the U.S. to somewhere else based on freaky predictions of Armageddon and international commerce?


When did you anticipate Armageddon? Just curious.

Ok, I’m going to try this. Brian, your OP is based on some false premises. I will list some of them.

  1. That Muslims “all over the world” are opposed to the state of Israel

  2. That, in the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict, “zealous Christians” are “fanning the flames of war”

  3. That the existance of a sovereign state is up to outsiders…that “Western colonizers” have the right to say, “Sorry…this state doesn’t have the right to exist. Get packed, the plane is leaving in an hour”

  4. That Orthodox Jews are “zealots”

  5. That the majority of the population of Israel are religious, Orthodox Jews.

That’s just a start… has this to say on Israeli migration:

Net migration rate: 3.63 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2000 est.)

  • that’s higher than the US migration rate.

So apparently there are more people moving to Israel than than there are leaving. Incidentally, I’d like to see a cite for those “millions” leaving a country with a population of less than 6 million people. That really calls for a cite. I might add that it sounds suspiciously like a number picked from thin air.

S. Norman

The original OP is not as farfetched as is made out-what will happen , some 25-30 years down the road, when Israel has a population of some 6 million, and is surrounded by a palestinian (muslim) population of perhaps 25 million?
Israel cannot indefinately be at war with its neighbors-the cost to maintain a large army is staggering-were it not for US largesse, this burden would be untenable.
There has to be some basis for a lasting peace-and i don’t see why zealots (on both sides) should be allowed to wreak havok on the lives of the majorities (of both Israel and Palestinians). To be blunt about it-make Jerusalem and OPEN city, under the UN.

Er, um, Jews have immigrated by the millions, not Israelis*. BTW, the vast majority of this emigration occurred prior to the establishment of Israel. Fer chrissakes, the country has only existed for 50 years, the population is now only 5.8 million ( ). From figures on this page , it appears that the Jewish population in Israel was only around 400-600,000 in 1948. (This is rough calculations based on the immigration figures listed there, plus allowance for natural population growth.)

Where the hell did this “millions of Israelis” who have allegedly emigrated come from? As Magdalene asked, “evidence please”. And it better be good evidence – Maggie’s taken Coloring for Credit, so she knows her stuff :wink:


I was thinking the same thing about everyone on this side of the arguement. When I saw you and old scratch I actually had to make sure I really believed what I was posting:)

I guess if you hang out long enough, strange things do happen.

Silly me.

Giving up statehood and self-determination for an apartment.

What was I thinking? I can envision the lines now.

Well, if you think 50% of Christians are hoping for the end-times, and then you think they will be OK with dismantling Isreal and putting the UN in charge…

I think you have some internal contradictions in your theory to say the least.

BTW…Fundamentalists see the Armegeddon as being a battle where Jesus comes down from the sky and kicks the devil’s ass. They understand that this happens in God’s timing. No one thinks there is some “trigger” event to bring Jesus down. (well…maybe Koresh did)

I didn’t think it was your fears we were addressing here.

At least the only fear of yours I have seen is paying $2/gallon for gas.


No way “Millions” of Isrealis are emigrating here.

Somehow the last 5 posts snuck in there:)


There are more Jews in the rest of the world than in Israel, I believe. Did you assume that all emigration to Israel was from the US? It appears so. I think Russia and Eastern Europe still account for most Israeli immigration, which is not my point anyway. I don’t know why Jews emigrate to Israel, and even that is not my point, since it is probable that other countries restrict their immigration. If it were easier or feasible to go somewhere else, I think most would. What is your point? That Israel must grow because Jews want it to? Fine. But if we are to end funding, a viable alternative must be offered. I would like to see an opinion poll on how many Israelis would leave Israel if given a good alternative. That will tell us how viable the option is. We can’t force anyone to leave, only entice them with the money saved from funding their state. Even then, it could be a long-term plan/policy. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that I propose reducing Israel by economic incentives, not increasing it.

Since the tone of your OP leads me to believe that you don’t actully hang out under bridges and eat goats, let me see if I understand you:

Israel should be forcibly dismantled because we’ll spend less money if this is done.

A better example of “selling out” I cannot imagine. If we were use our influence to make this happen, which I do not believe we could, we’d better do whatever we must to stay on top (assuming that’s where we are, which is another debate), because we will have proven that it is deadly-foolish to trust us. The knives will be out.


What is the cause for Israel again? Whatever it is/was, I don’t share it.