SuaSponte,
The only site I found regarding Israeli emigration was in Hebrew, as I expected. No figures yet, but I will withdraw this assertion until then (which I still believe to be over a million over the last fifty years). I have read an account where a prime minister from Israel once came to New York and complained he had to struggle to find a cab without an Israeli emigrant behind the wheel. I guess he was angry at this phenomenon.
hmmm…
Seems like a backtrack to me. Over 50 years…
I MIGHT give you one million from Isreal to America and Canada.
Maybe:)
I would say this might be a major ommission in your knowledge if you plan on moving them all out.
Maybe:)
I did take “coloring for credit”. Twice. :o
Now, if you were looking solely at the number of Israeli New York Cab drivers or Israeli souvenir shop owners in Key West, you might think “hmmmmm…there ARE a lot of Israelis coming to the U.S. Prepare to meet the swarm!” 
But that’s hardly evidence of 1) the emigration of millions of people from a country of 5.8 million or 2) anything at all, really, beyond the OP’s opinion.
Are you saying a) that the primary reason people move to Israel is that other countries restrict their immigration? And b) this fact should be a key reason for our “dismantling” a country of 5.8 million citizens?
No. What makes you say that? Whatever world immigration restrictions are, I think the fact that immigrants are going there, to Israel is a pretty strong refutation of your statement. You don’t pick up and leave the country for a new country without a good reason.
And why shouldn’t people relocate to a prosperous democracy that welcomes them with open arms where they will be allowed to practice their religion free of persecution? I mean, it sounds like total hell. Especially compared to Kyiv or Ykaterinburg. :rolleyes:
Um, what is YOUR point? Israel is growing because people are moving there. Yes, some people are moving away. Just like some Americans choose to live abroad and some French people make the U.S. their home. Economic opportunities, cultural reasons, family ties, whatever. Excuse my nervousness whenever I see “the Jews” and “dismantling/relocating” used too close together.
I too would like to see that poll. I think it would show you that your idea is wrong and unworkable.
Why are we moving them again? Because they are “in the way”? Because Israel pisses of OPEC? I don’t get it. Are we moving them as a unit - like, take a chunk of Minnesota and declare it the new state of Israel? Or will everyone scatter?
Wha?? We could cut off aid to Israel tomorrow, and the state would still exist.
And I don’t understand your question? Are you asking why there’s an Israel? Because they won the Six-Day War, among many other reasons. Who cares if you don’t share the feeling that they should exist? They do. So do our promises to them. If you don’t like the promises your government has made, quit whining and emigrate.
Brian, Israle is our ally. If you sell out your allies when they become inconvenient, you don’t get any more allies. Honor aside, (where most people keep it) selling out your friends is just not tenable in the long term.
…I got to typing so fast while we all play Whack-A-Mole with Brian’s idea, that I forgot to proofread.
Sua
Absolutely brilliant. You don’t know what it is, but your agin it.
Let me sum up.
To you:
Israel is a nation founded by Western colonizers (ignoring Britain’s efforts in the post-WWII period to keep Jews out).
It currently exists only because of money given by the U.S. at the insistence of Christian zealots (who make up the majority of Christians) who are hoping to start Armegeddon.
Most of our trade deficit is due to oil prices, (everyone, please ignore China and Japan, the two (non-oil-exporting) nations with whom our trade deficit is largest).
And, of course, most Israelis want to leave, but just can’t afford to.
Mr. Bunnyhurt there is a legitimate debate about Israel’s right to exist, which has been fought out repeatedly on this board. You aren’t making that debate. I ask that, the next time you plan to start a thread chock-full of citationless and completely wrong “facts”, you do us all a favor and start it in the Pit, where we can flame your idiocy properly.
Sua
Freedom2,
You shouldn’t be shocked to learn that most Jews are persecuted as such Russia, Cuba, Argentina, Latvia, Estonia, and elsewhere. Furthermore, their inability to go where they want is not their own limitation. It is imposed by countries with jobs to protect, such as Canada, which only lets someone into Canada with instant citizenship if they have a million dollars. Australia, along with Canada, a place with alot of space and natural resources, isn’t giving anything away as far as immigration goes. Only the US opens the floodgates because we’re not giving too much away for free (like Canada and Australia). It’s a complex issue, and I’m not backtracking, it is my opinion. By the way, I am familiar with the standard Christian tactic in debating, which is dodge and confuse and to avoid the main point with endless requotes, this is common on all BB’s. My point is, I don’t want to pay for Israel or be party to the end-of-the-world mentality, or be told over and over that Arabs are mean and evil and terroristic, just because a stupid religious tenet of destruction from the middle-east that has been part of a universal lowering of expectations for thousands of years.
I ask again, what then is the best solution to the middle-east? Christianize them, and then invite to North America? Or is it that people want them to be destroyed again? Are most Jews willing to our pawns in making endless war with Muslims? Sounds like a defense contractor scam to me.
Then it’s a good thing you’re not living there. I don’t share the “cause” for the U.S., but I’m not suggesting we dismantle it.
Brian, you seem to be under the impression that the only thing propping Israel up is massive US subsidies. Nope. Yes, they are our ally. Yes, they depend on us, just like we depend on Canada and Japan. No, that is not a bad thing.
Do you think if we gave the Arab countries the green light to invade Israel that they would suddenly start selling oil at cheaper prices? No, they would not.
Do most Christians sit around hoping for Armageddon? Maybe in your ex-Mormon circles, but not the vast majority of Christians.
From your other threads you seem to be a confused person recovering from a fundamentalist upbringing. But remember, just because mormons support something doesn’t make it wrong and just because they oppose something doesn’t make it right. See, now that you can reject fundamentalism you have to make up your own mind about things, not just do everything the opposite of what you used to.
SuaSponte,
I wouldn’t imagine that the Prime Minister who made the observation was a PM at the time, obviously, but he made the point to a reporter from USNews. And, I never claimed to know what drives zealots to causes, why do I as a citizen have to support it then? I don’t support it, but not for lack of support for most Jews, because I am not religiously tied to this idiocy of Armageddon. I take it you are vested in the outcome of this debate. You have a false sense of authority about who can debate what, I am American, where do you live? Israel? I reserve the right to say argue anything I want, and you can go to hell or drop off anytime you please. So, for the record, you are stating definitively that positive net immigration into Israel from all nations proves that Isrealis have not emigrated to North America exceeding one million over the span in question?
he following should be taken in the same spirit as Swift’s (The following should be taken in the spirit of Swift’s essay of the same name).
Brian's suggestion reminds me of an apocryphal tale of Golda Meyer. There had been many rapes over the past few nights. A councilman suggested that a twilight curfew be imposed on women to protect them. Meyer responded that the curfew should be on the men, since it was men who were committing the crimes.
1 OPEC countries over charge us for oil
2 The US give massive funds to Israel
Brian, dimantling Israel is not the solution here. Dismantling OPEC is.
The US should take over all Arab countries and then split them with Israel. The US could then demand that all its debts be cancelled or an embargo would result. Israel would have all that oil money and not need funding from anyone.Doc,
I have heard your last suggestion before. Someone once challenged me on the point of Israel by claiming that Israel was our “in” to take over the entire middle east. I am curious as to how may people actually entertain this idea.
Sorry about lining up the US & Israeli numbers next to each other, I can see that might lead to confusion. I just wanted another country that accepts emigrants for comparison, that’s all.
My point is that your alleged mass emigration (“millions” to NYC & Canada, right?) out of Israel appears rather unlikely, when Israel is in effect growing due to emigration.
What are your reasons for thinking this ? I mean, the emigrants have voted with their feet, so to speak.
Israel exists because it has managed to hold on to its territory and because the US has backed it up. Israel grows because people who want to live there are allowed to move there.
As screwtape says, selling your allies is both dishonorable and stupid. Doing so to appease OPEC is worse. Demonstrating to OPEC that you’ll remove their enemies (assuming here that OPEC considers Israel an enemy) if they just, please, won’t hike up the oil prices is way beyond stupid.
Oh, but this is not the question you put forth in the OP, is it ? I seem to recall something about “dismantling” being put forward as a suggestion. If you want to discuss “How can we broker a peace in the Middle East and save a bit of money in the process?”, by all means restate your OP.
Christianize? Colour me stupid, I thought North America had this “freedom of religion” thing going.
What about letting people, you know, try to forge their own destiny ?
Let’s see: The US are giving Israel the weaponry to defend itself. But this is in reality an attempt to destroy them ? Wouldn’t it be easier to withhold the weapons ? Cheaper, too.
Most Isrealis are willing to defend the country they consider theirs against any comers, be they moslem or not. Sounds like a nation trying to survive with hostile neighbours to me.
S. Norman
**Post-preview:**Where did all those posts come from ?
I’m sure it would shock you to learn, as you seem to think facts are irrelevant, that both Canada and Australia have higher immigration rates than the United States?
Australia - 4.26 migrants/1000 population
Canada - 6.2 migrants/1000 population
United States - 3.5 migrants/1000 population
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/net_migration_rate.html
I’m sure it would also shock you that the United States does not grant instant citizenship to immigrants, same as Canada, Australia, etc. Ever hear of a “Green Card”?
While we’re at it, please provide evidence of rampant persecution of Jews in Cuba, Latvia, Estonia, etc. I will grant you there is a strong anti-Semetic trend in Russia and Argentina.
Looking at the list of posters on this thread, none of them are one of SDMB’s resident fundies. I, for one, am an atheist.
And I ask you, what is your basis for believing that U.S. support for Israel is based upon dreams of the Christian Armegeddon? I’ve always heard that it is largely based upon guilt over the U.S.'s failure to stop the Holocaust, and, of course, because it is the only democratic nation in the Middle East, and we tend to support democracies.
Sua
he following should be taken in the same spirit as Swift’s
I’m having server problems again. I apologise if this post appears more than once
(The following should be taken in the spirit of Swift’s essay of the same name).
Brian's suggestion reminds me of an apocryphal tale of Golda Meyer. There had been many rapes over the past few nights. A councilman suggested that a twilight curfew be imposed on women to protect them. Meyer responded that the curfew should be on the men, since it was men who were committing the crimes.
1 OPEC countries over charge us for oil
2 The US give massive funds to Israel
Brian, dimantling Israel is not the solution here. Dismantling OPEC is.
The US should take over all Arab countries and then split them with Israel. The US could then demand that all its debts be cancelled or an embargo would result. Israel would have all that oil money and not need funding from anyone.Lemur,
I do not presume that Pat Robertson defines Christianity, (although he once claimed to define who they are), but he ardently supports the idea of Israel and Armageddon, and opposes Mormonism and other “cults” that still support Armageddon, which is predicted in scriputre along with other disaster prophecies. Something emotional is afloat with this ally/protectionist idea to send arms and cash to Israel, as this thread proves. I never claimed to have the best solution, which is why I asked for opinions in the first place. I do feel, however, that the solution is not more religious “reasoning”. I figure the price of oil to rise further over time relative to other costs, and I figure tensions in the middle-east to rise with them. The problem is not going to resolve itself without a compromise somewhere, and it needn’t be upon the Israeli’s to suffer their “role” in events from a Christian hope/perspective. Thanks.
If you don’t know what the cause is, or the reasons for the cause, you have no basis to assume that “zealots” are driving the cause.
What “debate”? There hasn’t been a debate yet. This entire thread has been wasted by people having to correct your basic “facts” before we can start a debate.
As for my feelings/opinions about Israel and its right to exist, I point out to you that I haven’t revealed them to you yet. Instead, I’ve been forced to continually point out to you that your basic facts are wrong.
As for my “vested” interests, I’m an 7th-generation atheist Irish-American.
As for your “where do you live? Israel?” comment, I detect a distinct anti-Semetic scent in that comment.
That’s not how this board works. The purpose of this board is fighting ignorance. With you, I’ve had my work cut out.
I never said you didn’t have the right to “say argue” (?) anything you want. I suggested you post inanities like this in the Pit, where the rules are laxer, and where it is the appropriate place to post rants like your OP. 'Cause it wasn’t the start of a debate. On this message board, we base debates in facts
As for the Israeli emigration issue, you are the one who asserted that Israelis are fleeing their country as fast as they can get the money for a plane ticket. I’ve already demonstrated that that assertion is crap.
Sua
SuaSponte,
Rate per 1000? That is another point then. I never claimed any of those things you put forth. “Rampant” persecution in Cuba or all places? Is this a trick question? I didn’t qualify it as official did I? (Lest we forget that building a synogogue may or may not be illegal there, who knows how easy it is to be a Jew in a nation that restricts its press.)
Spiney,
What will happen when Islamic Jihad fighters get ahold of a few atomic weapons? Obviously, they may find it convenient to blow up New York City if their point is to make a statement about Israel. Who knows? And who said Israel was out ally against the middle-east? This is a false assumption placed upon them by circumstances that relate to this entire discussion. We would have Arab allies without Israel in the mix, which takes me back to SuaSponte’s point.
SuaSponte,
By the same reasoning in my last sentence, those dictators that oppose us in the middle-east do so for what they feel to be good cause, because they might think that we oppose them to a degree. Also, dictators do not prove anything in this sense, especially if the reasoning is circular and the political outcome is used to justify more input on a bad equation, since a dictator rises to power on points of conflict. Sounds like a vicious circle by using this reason. Also, let’s not kid ourselves that a religious state of Israel is so democratic, because they segregate settlements, and we see the riots on TV and figure, well, that’s a good reason to segregate. But that is my point here, and this segregation technique was used against the Jews countless times themselves. A European ploy was to put them in slums and then claim they were a health hazard. Are we performing the same mistake over and over as per the Jews?
SuaSponte,
Detect anything you please, but the question as to whether you were in Israel was related to your false sense of authority. No one needs be racially motivated to argue against war-mongering.