Can we afford not to dismantle Israel?

[Helen_s_Eidolon]

I just wanted a recap here.

What has Brian said, besides opinions, that hasn’t been proven statistically false?

[Jonathan_Chance]

Let me voice this objection BB.

Would you then, support the United States abandoning it’s support for the one true liberal (such as it is) democracy in the middle east? And the US would be doing it for it’s own dollars and cents advantage?

If that’s the case then why bother with the high-minded ideals upon which the US is founded? (Not that we necessarily live up to them all the time.)

Or to rephrase: our support for liberty and democracy should be contingent upon our economic interests? We should support kings (of all things) and despots at the expense of freedom?

[magdalene]

It was either going to be Sua or me. It was me.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=57215

[Screwtape]

*Originally posted by magdalene *
It was either going to be Sua or me. It was me.

(Applause…)

[Lemur866]

Brian: What does Pat Robertson have to do with anything? You seem to believe that most people who support our relationship with Israel are fundamentalists who hope to trigger Armageddon. Well, there may be a few of those out there, and Pat Robertson may very well be one of them.

So what? Do you think most people in the US think this way? Or even a sizable minority? This pro-Armageddon thing is a wacky, way-out, fringe belief, just like Pat Robertson is a fringe player among Christians.

You seem to have a fixation that anyone who supports Israel must be a pro-Armageddon Christian zealot. Nope, I’m a libertarian Atheist.

You somehow have the idea that we are forcing jews to settle in Israel because we want them to fight the Arabs, because most Americans want to trigger the end times.

You somehow have the idea that Israelis would leave Israel if only they could. This is contradicted by high immigration to Israel of eastern european Jews after the fall of communism, and Israel’s booming economy.

And why do you think the most likely target for arab nuclear terrorism would be the US? Um, wouldn’t Israel be a better target?

You said that “something emotional” is driving this Israel “debate”, and thought it was some bizarre wish for world destruction. How about this? The emotional side is our desire to not abandon our ally, our desire for peace, our cultural link to Israel, and our desire to prevent a second Holocaust.

If your OP was “Should we continue to sell arms and send aid to Israel” perhaps some people would be cutting you a little slack. But there’s a big difference between cutting off aid and “dismantling” a country. Israel is an independent sovreign country, it isn’t up to us to decide its fate. Or if your OP was “We are too supportive of Israel over the Palestinians” you might have gotten argument, but people wouldn’t question your sanity.

[RickJay]

*Originally posted by Brian Bunnyhurt *

You shouldn’t be shocked to learn that most Jews are persecuted as such Russia, Cuba, Argentina, Latvia, Estonia, and elsewhere. Furthermore, their inability to go where they want is not their own limitation. It is imposed by countries with jobs to protect, such as Canada, which only lets someone into Canada with instant citizenship if they have a million dollars.

Pure nonsense. Canada has no such policy. Furthermore, Canada has one of the most open immigration policies of any nation on Earth. Immigration is a cornerstone of Canadian economic policy.

Brian, you might want to stop making stuff up/repeating urban myths if you want anyone to take you seriously.

[SuaSponte]

*Originally posted by Brian Bunnyhurt *
SuaSponte,

Rate per 1000? That is another point then.

What point?

I never claimed any of those things you put forth.

You didn’t write

Most of our trade deficits are due to the price of oil and all of our manufactured goods and services has the price of oil factored in

?
You didn’t write

I consider it an ethical duty to gradually relocate all Jewish people in Israel to wherever they want to go (which is already happening for those who can afford to leave)

?
Etc., etc.
Unless you wrote your OP in Esperanto, you did in fact claim those things I put forth.
I know you’re new here, but let me give you a clue: everything you argue is written down and I can see it on my computer screen. That makes it difficult to deny that you said something. :rolleyes:

“Rampant” persecution in Cuba or all places? Is this a trick question? I didn’t qualify it as official did I? (Lest we forget that building a synogogue may or may not be illegal there, who knows how easy it is to be a Jew in a nation that restricts its press.)

You wrote (see, I can quote you):

You shouldn’t be shocked to learn that most Jews are persecuted as such Russia, Cuba, Argentina, Latvia, Estonia, and elsewhere

I have not heard or read anywhere the anti-Semitism is rampant in Cuba, Latvia, or Estonia. (For purposes of this “debate”, let’s define “rampant” or, in your words “most Jews are persecuted” as a level of official and unofficial anti-Semitism higher than that found in the U.S.)
I asked you to provide evidence. Nothing tricky about it, son.

By the same reasoning in my last sentence, those dictators that oppose us in the middle-east do so for what they feel to be good cause, because they might think that we oppose them to a degree.

I can name off the top of my head four Middle Eastern dictatorships that are strong U.S. allies: Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Jordan. Two of these countries are at peace with Israel, and two are still in an official state of war with Israel. Do you know which is which?

Also, dictators do not prove anything in this sense, especially if the reasoning is circular and the political outcome is used to justify more input on a bad equation, since a dictator rises to power on points of conflict. Sounds like a vicious circle by using this reason.

Are you seriously arguing that countries in the Middle East are dictatorships because of the conflict with Israel?!! If so, let me disabuse you. None of the countries in the regions were democracies before 1948, which, if you didn’t know, was the date of Israel’s establishment. Kinda puts a hole in your theory, huh?

Also, let’s not kid ourselves that a religious state of Israel is so democratic, because they segregate settlements, and we see the riots on TV and figure, well, that’s a good reason to segregate.

The settlements to which you refer to are not located in Isreal, and the Palestinians in the region are not Israelis. Israel does has massive civil rights problems with its treatment of Israeli Arabs (who I feel I must inform you are citizens and have voting rights), but that doesn’t mean they aren’t a democracy. Was the U.S. not a democracy in the days of Selma and Martin Luther King, Jr.?
BTW, Israel is not a religious state. Freedom of religion is enshrined in Israeli law. http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00hb0

But that is my point here, and this segregation technique was used against the Jews countless times themselves. A European ploy was to put them in slums and then claim they were a health hazard. Are we performing the same mistake over and over as per the Jews?

Are you seriously arguing that Israel is actually a plot to ghettoize the Jews again? If it is, we are doing a piss-poor job, as approx. 10% of the U.S. population is still Jewish. Damn, we better get those planes in the air, and start shipping them out.
I think I see your fundamental problem: you believe that the existence of Israel is a massive Christian/anti-Semetic plot, and that the Israelis are just too stupid to realize they are being used. Ignoring the insult this poses to Israelis and Jews in general, your paranoia is amusing.

Sua

{fixed coding. --Gaudere}

[Edited by Gaudere on 01-25-2001 at 03:50 PM]

[Brian_Bunnyhurt]

Laurange,

Please recap where I was proven false. I missed it. Nice try.

Jonathon,

Let me see if I understand you. We artificially made a democracy in the middle-east to oppose someone? I’m not so sure I like this idea, and I wonder why anyone does unless they believe in scripture. So, when does this game play itself out? By the way, we went into Kuwait and freely evacuated after securing and re-installing a monarchy on a throne. I don’t buy one part of this premise, and I don’t even buy it with sympathy. Convince me again. I’m sure I’m not the only person here that needs the straight answers as to why a scripture about Israel existing to fulfill a prophecy about the end of the world has anything to do with democracy, which is a ONE reason why many Americans go along with this idea in the first place.

I suggest to anyone who cares enough to read Robert D. Kaplan’s The Arabists (Free Press: New York, 1995) to see just who sold out who on this Israel question. It seems that Mr. Kaplan, a Jew, and author of Balkan Ghosts among others, suggests that the American long established goodwill in the Arab region was sold-out wholesale to appease Jewish lobby interests on the State Department after WW2, and pro-Arab diplomats were relegated to deskjobs or retired (hence the title) because they nearly unanimously and strenously objected. And that was before the discovery of huge oil lakes under the region. I highly recommend it. He states that one reason Arabs are not entirely spiteful of the US is because the crown jewel of goodwill, the American University in Beirut, trained most of the first wave of professionals in the region. (The chancellor of this University recently reported that anti-American sentiment is at an all time high, sorry, don’t have the quote handy, and Laurange, that doesn’t prove someone wrong like in bible-bashing).

[Spiny_Norman]

My head hurts…

Buns says

What will happen when Islamic Jihad fighters get ahold of a few atomic weapons? Obviously, they may find it convenient to blow up New York City if their point is to make a statement about Israel. Who knows?

Nobody knows. What’s your point ? We should get rid of Israel to save NYC or what ?

And who said Israel was out ally against the middle-east?

Nobody said that. I believe I said Israel was your (i.e., the US’) ally in the Middle East.

This is a false assumption placed upon them by circumstances that relate to this entire discussion. We would have Arab allies without Israel in the mix, which takes me back to SuaSponte’s point.

Some of this actually makes sense. Had there been no Israel, the US might have had Arab allies. Or perhaps not. Alternate realities is a fun game to play, but could we focus on the real world ?

Israel does exist, and I believe it’s been adequately explained why it’s not going to let itself be dismantled. It’s been explained why it’s stupid & dishonorable to try.

Your assessment that Israels continued existence is a plot hatched by Christian warmongers is still firmly planted in thin air.

Now cough up some facts or take this to the Pit.

S. Norman

[Brian_Bunnyhurt]

SuaSponte,

It should “Cuba OF all places” (typo, not “or”) and yes, I was talking about your last thread, again, you are eager to discredit but have nothing to say on the subject.

[SuaSponte]

Had there been no Israel, the US might have had Arab allies.

We do have Arab allies. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Oman, and Morocco all spring to mind.

Sua

[Brian_Bunnyhurt]

Spiny,

I got you to admit that Israel exists. Now we are getting somewhere. Why? Because it says so in scripture? I swear I am asking in good faith. I am trying to get to the bottom of a problem that most would rather avoid (so sorry for the inconvenience). It seems the consensus is that Israel may cost us tens of billions annually, but so what, we don’t care as much about the Arabs, its a good cause, which then implicitly assumes that Arabs are slated to be the enemy, (what a coincidence) oh, but we’ll be glad to do business with them and buy their oil and prop their monarchies up if we ever win their wars for them. Correct?

[Freedom]

…I got to typing so fast while we all play Whack-A-Mole with Brian’s idea, that I forgot to proofread.

That’s gotta be the best metaphor possible for this thread.
SuaSponte:

Thank you for making me laugh while you drag out the red pen and mark up BB posts. So many mistakes, so little time.

::rolling up my sleeves::
(and fully expecting 4 more new replies before I’m finished)
BB:

It is imposed by countries with jobs to protect, such as Canada, which only lets someone into Canada with instant citizenship if they have a million dollars.

You’re gonna hate me.

Do you happen to have a cite for that million dollar citizenship thing?

Btw…I thought Canada and America were the ones with our arms wide open to catch all the Jews fleeing Isreal.

By the way, I am familiar with the standard Christian tactic in debating, which is dodge and confuse and to avoid the main point with endless requotes, this is common on all BB’s.

Whatever are you talking about? The quotes are to make referencing specific points much easier. I hate it when a new poster hasn’t figured out how to cut and paste yet.

Of course, I could see how it would be frustrating if people kept using your own words to cut your arguement in half:)

My point is, I don’t want to pay for Israel or be party to the end-of-the-world mentality, or be told over and over that Arabs are mean and evil and terroristic, just because a stupid religious tenet of destruction from the middle-east that has been part of a universal lowering of expectations for thousands of years.

I suggest counseling.

I can see from other posters on this thread that you seem to have a background that makes you a little skitish abotu religion. Here, let me help.

You have to pay taxes.
You don’t have to believe in the end of the world.
Nobody has said that Arabs are evil.
The Middle East has not been lowering the Univere’s level of expectation for thousands of years.
There…don’t you feel better now?

I ask again, what then is the best solution to the middle-east? Christianize them, and then invite to North America? Or is it that people want them to be destroyed again?

Now, now…

Here is where that quote thing comes in handy. Could you point out to me exactly where you asked these questions the first time?

Are most Jews willing to our pawns in making endless war with Muslims? Sounds like a defense contractor scam to me.

There are probably some strong defense contractor lobbyists invovled. However, as for the people in Isreal, I think they are just trying to live a normal life like you and me in a country they love.

So, for the record, you are stating definitively that positive net immigration into Israel from all nations proves that Isrealis have not emigrated to North America exceeding one million over the span in question?

So, for the record…

Have you gotten even one fact correct in here? Could you point it out to me?

The problem is not going to resolve itself without a compromise somewhere,

Or a winner and a loser.

and it needn’t be upon the Israeli’s to suffer their “role” in events from a Christian hope/perspective. Thanks.

What the hell are you talking about? Just because certain Christians have a certain belief about how the current day Isreal fits into the Bible does not mean the Isrealis are “suffering.”

. I do feel, however, that the solution is not more religious “reasoning”.

Since every country over there I can think of is defined by religion, I have a feeling that religios reasoning is going to have to play a big part in any peaceful settlement.

Of course, war is always an option.

What will happen when Islamic Jihad fighters get ahold of a few atomic weapons? Obviously, they may find it convenient to blow up New York City if their point is to make a statement about Israel. Who knows?

Weren’t you the one ranting about describing Arabs as terrorists just a little earlier? And what happens when Islamic Jihad fighters finish with Isreal and focus on us?

Who knows?

We would have Arab allies without Israel in the mix

Just wanted to point out that the Gulf War in 1991 demonstrated that we have other allies besides Isreal in the Middle East.

By the same reasoning in my last sentence, those dictators that oppose us in the middle-east do so for what they feel to be good cause, because they might think that we oppose them to a degree

We tend to discourage most dictatorships. They seem to oppose because of our ideas of freedom.

Damn

I just noticed the pit thread. That’s it. I can’t be reasonable anymore now that BB’s lunacy is official.
BB, come back and be logical and reasonable. Refute points with facts and address specific points of disagreement that we all brought up and I will be back to debate.

Otherwise…

I hope your treatment goes well…

(BTW…I sugggested counseling for him BEFORE I saw the pit thread)

[barton]

I think that if Napoleon hopped out of his casket, ready to conquer the world, and was given the choice of either 1) invading Russia again in the dead of winter and 2) invading Israel… he would pick 1.

Frankly, I think the Arabs have a better chance of depopulating Venus than Israel. If there’s a group of people that aren’t going anywhere anytime soon on this planet, it’s the ones insisting on living on that little strip of land.

[system]

Brian:

…never mind. It’s like hitting a pillow with a baseball bat.

[Spiny_Norman]

Let me see if I understand you. We artificially made a democracy in the middle-east to oppose someone?

No, you do not understand. Where did you get the idea Israel was made specifically to oppose someone ?

Oh, right, I forgot, the conspiracy of Christians for Apocalypse.

I’m not so sure I like this idea, and I wonder why anyone does unless they believe in scripture.

Right, listen carefully. I do not believe in scripture, OK ?
I do, however, believe in Democracy. So did a lot of people in 1948, for bloody obvious reasons. So when Israel was founded, it was made - wait for it - a democracy.

I’m sure I’m not the only person here that needs the straight answers as to why a scripture about Israel existing to fulfill a prophecy about the end of the world has anything to do with democracy, which is a ONE reason why many Americans go along with this idea in the first place.

I’m sure you’re the only person here who believes that Israel was founded to fulfill a prophecy. You might wish to provide a cite for your assumption that this biblical prophecy was a reason for “many” Americans to go along with the idea.

BTW, we’re still waiting for a cite for the “millions” of Israeli emigrants, to say nothing about your idea that the majority of Christians are hoping for Armageddon in the Middle East.

Now, off to the Pit.

S. Norman

[Brian_Bunnyhurt]

Freedom2,

I seem to recall you said something about Jews moving into our backyards. If that doesn’t sum up your position, I don’t know what else does. I am familiar with Canada’s immigration policy as it pertained to citizens of Hong Kong, which was reported that they needed a million bucks in a Canadian bank to casually emigrate to Canada immediately (no, it was not an extortion, sorry for the misunderstading). I was somewhat shocked too, but then again, I can’t speak for the Canadians.

[Spiny_Norman]

*Originally posted by SuaSponte *
**

Had there been no Israel, the US might have had Arab allies.

We do have Arab allies. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Oman, and Morocco all spring to mind.

Sua **

• no offense taken, I stand corrected. Hair trigger on “Submit reply”, I’m afraid.

S. Norman

[SuaSponte]

*Originally posted by Brian Bunnyhurt *
**Spiny,

I got you to admit that Israel exists.

Bad Spiny!! Denying Israel exists. Bad! Bad!!
(admittedly, I hadn’t noticed that you had denied Israel exists. It wasn’t my fault!! The zealous Christians had blinded me!)

Now we are getting somewhere. Why? Because it says so in scripture? I swear I am asking in good faith.

I can’t speak for Spiny, but I’m pretty sure Israel exists because of the newspapers, TV news, and the fact that my parents went there and brought back an “I Luv Tel Aviv” t-shirt for me (cheap bastards).

It seems the consensus is that Israel may cost us tens of billions annually, but so what, we don’t care as much about the Arabs,

What tens of billions annually? Aid to Israel last year was $3.085 billion. BTW, we have by treaty guaranteed a certain level of aid to Israel, as part of the Camp David accords, wherein Israel made peace with Egypt. Also as part of that deal, we guaranteed aid to Egypt, and last year we gave them $2.322 billion.

These figures are from http://www.state.gov/ , although I admittedly have no information on whether they are real, or a zealous Christian disinformation plot.

which then implicitly assumes that Arabs are slated to be the enemy, (what a coincidence) oh, but we’ll be glad to do business with them and buy their oil and prop their monarchies up if we ever win their wars for them. Correct?

Don’t you see your own internal contradiction? Obviously not. If Arabs are the enemy, why would we fight for them?

Sua

[Freedom]

Freedom2,

I seem to recall you said something about Jews moving into our backyards. If that doesn’t sum up your position, I don’t know what else does.

ummm…

Go back and cut and paste my comment so I can see it.

I am familiar with Canada’s immigration policy as it pertained to citizens of Hong Kong, which was reported that they needed a million bucks in a Canadian bank to casually emigrate to Canada immediately

I asked for a cite, not a story.