Sua, you can bear my child anytime.
Israel exists because of U.N. General Assembly Resolution 181, which divided the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, a Jewish and an Arab one. The Jewish one named itself Israel, because of Judaism, not Christianity. Christians didn’t have anything to do with what the state was called. The U.S. supports Israel because it’s the right thing to do…Israel is a U.S. ally, and a democracy, and not because of some eschatalogical vision held by a few people. As it is now, some Muslim states, and in fact, some Arab states are at peace or allied with Israel. This peace and these alliances didn’t come easy for either side. Both sides had a good deal of mistrust and doubt to overcome, and some of the leaders who helped forge that peace suffered for it, sometimes even losing their lives. In order for Israel to exist, it needs to be at peace with its neighbors…it can’t exist in a state of constant war. But, you can’t have peace by surrendering…nothing can get solved by running away. If the Israeli Jews leave Israel, where should they go? What should they do? For almost 2000 years, Jews have been roaming, living on the sufference of others, who only sometimes tolerated them. Jews, for too much of history, weren’t allowed to become citizens, weren’t allowed to defend themselves, and lived in fear that their homes or their lives would be destroyed. That won’t happen again. Israelis put their lives on the line every day by living where they live. However you feel about the settlements in the West Bank, the people who live their are risking their lives. But you know what, Brian? They do it. They don’t do it to fulfull some Christian prophecy, or because they’re the front men for western imperialism. They do it because sooner or later, you have to stop running. You have to take a stand. Those people have taken their stand. I don’t live in Israel, and probably never will move there, but I’m damn glad it exists, and I’m glad that if I need to, I can.
Sua,
So, are you saying that the we never pit Arab against Arab in our schemes to “stabilize” the middle-east? If so, I seem to recall plenty of controversy over diplomat April Glaspie’s role in the Iraq war, some say she even gave a green light to Saddam Hussein, willingly or otherwise, but I am not here to argue that she did, merely point out that your position of accepting things as logically inevitable or clear-cut in the middle-east is absurd. Also, the US declined to vanquish all of Saddam’s armies in Iraq, or even force a conditional surrender, because the CIA calculated that they were expedient to the cause of keeping Iran in check, both sides who started their mutual war with our supplied weapons (It’s so tidy isn’t it?). I submit that many of you are unwitting dupes to the needs of arms suppliers in the US that prefer these little stalemates to exist to keep them in business, whatever other reasons you may have in justifying animosity abroad. By the way, the CIA overthrew the elected premier of Iran in the early fifties and installed a dictator (Shah). I suppose you never heard this one? So much for the democracy theory, which is a tad bit rosey and naive for my tastes.
Freedom2,
I neglected to say that if you wish for Armageddon, then you might should be the one to seek counseling, nice of you to suggest the idea for me and be concerned for my mental health however. If the middle-east makes sense to you, you’re obviously too well adjusted.
Yes, there have been allegations that Ms. Glaspie, wittingly or unwittingly, signaled to Saddam that the U.S. wouldn’t interfere with an Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. I congratulate you on finally getting a fact right. It is so far unproven - however, having read the information, I personally believe that the circumstantial evidence shows that Ms. Glaspie unwittingly did so. However, the evidence is crystal clear that, in unwittingly doing so, she was not acting under orders or advancing official U.S. policy. She made a mistake.
Son, you were doing so well. But here, you’ve gone back into La-La Land. It was our Arabian allies, particularly Saudi Arabia, who insisted that we stop after we liberated Kuwait. There strategic reason was that Iraq served as a buffer between them and Iran, and a vanquished Iraq would no longer be able to do so.
Are you on Stelazine or Thorazine? In this instance, those evil U.S. arms suppliers are prohibited from selling weapons to either Iran or Iraq. Not much business there. In general, The U.S. and its NATO allies purchase some 90%+ of the weapons U.S. arms contractors manufacture.
Heard of this one? I wrote a paper on this one. Back in the height of the Cold War, the U.S. repeatedly destabilized elected governments we considered too cozy to the U.S.S.R. or too leftist. Examples include Guatemala, the Dominican Republic, Chile, and Iran. It is no longer our policy, as it was a failed one. BTW, Iran is not an Arab country, so it’s a poor example.
Freedom2, have you been wishing for Armageddon again?! We’ve talked about this. 
Sua
For me, its more like employee of the arms supplier. We sell lots of F-16’s over there.
By the way, Brian, there seem to be a bunch of people waiting for you in the pit. You might at least go in and say hello.
Freedom2,
You taunt me to quote you? Read your own posts, unlike you I do not desperately repaste everything someone ever said when I have nothing important to say about it (too boring). Check out this cite for exceptions to Canada’s immigration law, see rules #6 and #7. It offers and immediate exception to immigration for “entrepreneurs with substantial investments” in Canada and dances around the issue of how much or when what can happen, and sounds so conveniently expedient to the wealthy to me, but I’m done chasing down your dodges for now (I can’t read Hebrew, nor did anyone deny that Israeli’s emigrate to North America, we’re just quibbling over a number to excuse an important debate, again, boring). Did you learn your pseudo-erudite technique from Sua?
http://www.immigrationvisa.org/canadian_immigration_faqs.htm#Wht are obligations of entrepreneur
Capt. Amazing,
I’m not so glad as you. If you are so happy that Israel is there for YOU when you NEED it, you have yet to justify the cost to the rest of us, in dollars and lives.
Sua,
Did I say tens of billions? Of course I did. It seems to me that it may be hundreds of billions instead, assuming that for every increased dollar per barrel achieved by a cartel we’re talking huge amounts of money. Where is the cite to prove that oil is higher than it would be without a cartel? Common sense should suffice, and I wouldn’t brush aside the efforts of a successful cartel, but either way, the burden of proof is not mine in that regard, since you are justifying an historical action and I am questioning the wisdom of it.
To bad none of this has anything to do with resolution to the Israel conflict. Oh, but of course it doesn’t.
I second that Alessan! Wha-?
You must be kidding Brian Bunnyhurt! No one is going to be able to dismanle Israel. I think they already proved that in the past, and I pity the ‘whoever’ that tries in the future.
Brian,
If you want to get rid of American funding and support for Israel, fine. If you want to abandon a constant ally and democratic country, because you think it’ll lower gas prices a nickel, fine. But, don’t try to disguise it in noble motives. Admit you want to sell out a friend.
The cost to lives is in Israeli lives. When terrorists plant bombs, or when Iraqis launch Scuds at Israel, it's Israelis who die, not Americans.Uhhh…Mr. Bunnyhurt?
Yes, oil prices are higher under OPEC than they would be otherwise.
(deep breath)
What does that have to do with Israel? Are you saying that OPEC would not exist if Israel did not exist? I doubt that highly. Many OPEC countries are not Arab. OPEC exists because many oil exporting countries are poor third-world states. They are trying to maintain higher oil prices by restricting the supply. They have been somewhat succesful, but oil production is very hard to control. Like all cartels, OPEC has been only partially succesful.
So, what does OPEC have to do with Israel? Israel has no oil, it is not a member of OPEC. Yes, several OPEC states are hostile to Israel. So what? So are many non-OPEC states.
In fact, military spending by OPEC states is going to tend to decrease oil prices. Why? OPEC states buy military junk from the US. To do so, they need cash. To get cash, they increase oil production. Increased oil production means (hold your breath) lower oil prices.
So, what does OPEC have to do with Israel?
The presence or absence of the state of Israel (to answer my own question) has nothing to do with OPEC, or the price of oil.
What’s the flaw in my reasoning, that only you can spot? What is the secret connection between oil and Israel? WHAT DOES OPEC HAVE TO DO WITH ISRAEL?
Capt. Amazing,
We have made alot of enemies for the sake of Israel, and in my estimation only the Christians are buying into the question of necessity. I don’t fault the orthodox Jews for trying to bluff Americans, we just elected a rich idiot for president who wants our kids to go to parochial schools, its a good time to sell the taxpayer on Israel again (after we cut our social spending some more perhaps).
…
To whoever invited me to the pit, I decline. You Pat and Jerry Christians are just like Mormons, you hide your motives and you’re always offended that someone dares contradict your stupid scriptures (which contradict themselves) and I was already invited once when I was debunking Mormonism during which all they could do was requote me over and over and over. You folks need to learn to follow a thought of your own, one that builds upon a premise. Nobody is fooled by your methods of discredit. For instance, nobody (well, maybe one person did) offered a counter-solution once during this entire thread. Shows who I’m up against.
By the way, the millenium just ended, its a new era, for alot of reasons. You bible-bashers should consider packing it in and coming back in a thousand years. The madness is ancient and its over.
Mr. Bunnyhurt:
It appears that you are quite upset that your opponents in this debate are fanatical Christians.
However, what you don’t seem to realize is that many of us are not Christians. Me, for instance. I am not a christian, I am not any religion, I am an atheist.
And although SOME people who have refuted your wild allegations over and over are christians, the only way that I knew that is from other threads. Their christianity had NOTHING to do with this debate.
For the life of me, I cannot understand the Christian bashing IN THIS THREAD. Fine, you think Christians suck, hey, if this were another topic I might agree. But what does the fact that Christians are idiots have to do with whether Israel should be dismantled?
You are the only one who keeps mentioning Christianity. NO ONE in this debate has invoked religion as a reason to support Israel. No one. Your (perhaps justified) hatred of Christianity is leading you to seriously distort what people in this thread have been saying.
And you keep IGNORING what we say, and keep accusing us of Christianity. Well, sir, you cannot insult me that way. I suggest you stop accusing me of being a Christian, since I am not a Christian.
Get it? I am not a Christian.
Not a Christian.
Who? I only count Syria and, given Syria’s socialist government, we probably would be enemies anyway without Israel. Libya’s a possibility, but again given it’s socialist government and the fact that Quadaffi’s a crackpot, we would probably be enemies, also. The only other Arab country upset with us is Iraq, and I humbly submit that Hussein’s mad at us because we, um, went to war with him.
Non-Arab - Iran does not like our support of Israel, but we are the “Great Satan” to them because of our support of the Shah.
Terrorist groups? Well, the Palestinian groups haven’t attacked a U.S. target in years. The only active group against us is Osama bin Laden, and his primary issue is getting U.S. soldiers off the Holy Lands of Saudi Arabia.
Where are the “Pat and Jerry Christians” in this thread? I know most of the posters who have written here, and none are fundies. As I told you twice before, son, I’m an atheist. But then again, you don’t let facts get in your way, now do you? In that way, you are very like the fundamentalists you so despise.
I seriously doubt you could debunk the side of a barn.
But it’s so easy, and so fun. Further, you seem to need it, as you keep “forgetting” what you wrote before.
It’s impossible to have a debate based on facts when one side of the debate (you) doesn’t know a fact from the whole in the ground. It’s impossible to present counter-solutions to an utterly flawed initial proposition. If you would take a short break, go out and read something, and come back, then perhaps we could have a real debate.
Ironically, you got this one right. I’m a Bible-basher - I often get involved in debates with the intention of discrediting bible-based assertions. I think the term you wanted to use was Bible-thumpers.
I’m sure I’ll be talking to you soon, son.
Sua
Umm, BB? So far, most of the folks lined up to play “whack-a-mole” with you are NOT Christians. In fact, AFAIK, I am the 1st well-known Christian on this Board to post here. And, as a (hopefully) soon-to-be Deacon of the Celtic Christian Church- i am possibly the most liberal you can get as a Christian, and still be considered one. Yes, true, some of this boards Atheists have indeed dragged me into the PIT- but I am also a well known dissenter to the “Christian Right”. So- get off of the fact that the posters attacking you are part of some weird right-wing Christian conspiracy- if anything, it is the opposite (some wierd left wing Atheist conspiracy? 
).
Now- as a Christian- I know of none actually hoping for Armageddon. I have read some Right-Wing Fundie stuff about Isreals re-founding being one of the “warning signs” of the impending Apocalypse- but why would someone WANT that to happen? With so many “unsaved”? Next- those very reactionary Fundie groups are more or less anti-semitic. So it is kinda wierd for you to say THEY are the one behind our support for Isreal. The right wing usually wants the US out of the foriegn aid business, and even out of the UN. The Liberal Democrats are the political allies of the Jews in this country. Note that Lieberman was GORE’S running mate you unobservant “person”, you. The very antitheses of the “Religous Right” was Gore- they despised him- AND his running mate.
Next- even if we withdrew all our aid from Isreal they would still be able to whip the massed Arab nations. Yes- it would be harder- so instead of 1 Isreali casualty to a hundred “arabs” it might only be fifty to one. :rolleyes:
Even without our support for Isreal, many nations over there would still hate our guts and want to bomb us- we are the “great satan”- remember?
Are you actually listening to us. tho?
Curioser and curioser.
I was the one who invited you to the pit. And I’m not a Christian, NOT A CHRISTIAN! Your assumption that your detractors in this thread (or in the pit) are the bible-thumpers of the SDMB is laughable. And untrue. No one besides you has brought religious beliefs into this debate - we have only asked what you mean or how they support what you are trying to say.
The U.S.A. does not support Israel because of Christian theology, Armageddon, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or Oil prices. Honestly, where did you get this idea?
We support Israel because they are a proven ally, a fellow democracy, and a leader in the region for security and economic purposes. Yes, there are a whole host of emotional and cultural ties that drives our feelings of friendship. Yes, we probably send too much money there. Those are policy issues quite separate from religion and your end of the world ideas.
The idea of packing up the citizens of a state and moving them somewhere else is preposterous. The idea that the entire citizenry of a prosperous and free nation built on immigration only emigrated there because other avenues were closed to them is preposterous. The citizens of Israel, for the most part, chose to emigrate to Israel. They are staying put. And I pity the fool who tries to move them.
Second, requoting you over and over seems to convince everyone BUT you that your arguments and premises are false.
Your own words are quite enough. EVERYONE, except you, is “fooled” by our methods of discredit. No one is fooled by your ramblings, your blindness to the facts we provide, or your provision of un-credited anecdotes as factual cites.
Too much Benny Hinn, really. IIRC he supports Israel ferverently due to its prophetic significance. Of course, he is a televangelist type.
I’m a firm believer in morality before economics. I think most of the US government agrees with this – foreign aid and peacekeeping missions are not specifically carried out in order to turn a buck. They are done to save lives and ensure peace (as in peace keeping). We give foreign aid to earthquake victims not because they may live to buy a Chevy next year. There may be some economic rewards, for instance in the bailout of the Mexican economy last year, but I may maintain the naive view that all foreign aid is not done for profit.
BB, your whole premise is flawed. Just like any nation on the planet, Israel’s right to exist lies in the fact that it does exist. No nation has an intrinsic right to exist and the only justification for a nation is the fact that a group of people in a certain place want a nation. As has been said before, Israel would continue to exist without US funding – while it is not self-sufficient, the very fact that there is a nation there means that it will not go away easily. Nations don’t have Going Out of Business All Nukes 80% Off sales.
What in essence you are advocating when you speak of dissolution of a nation is wholesale relocation of a population, mostly against their will. You have debated (ineffectively) the use of the word “mostly” in the previous sentence. Even if part of the population refuses to relocate, you are still talking about a large scale forced relocation. Those who stay get killed. The only way to get rid of a nation is to move the group of people who constitute it.
Sound familiar? Can you say the whole Balkan mess? How about the Kurdish relocation in Northern Iraq? Can you say Chechnya? Can you say Cultural Revolution? How about Nazi Germany? March of Tears? The Babylonian Diaspora?
Do any of these have positive connotations in your mind? Can you think of a successful forced relocation of a populace?
Oh, but edwino, it’s okay.
The Arabs are going to buy apartments for them.
BunnyButt…
Nice try on the Canadian cite. You got halfway there. You see, it is deemed appropriate around here to actually quote the relevant part of a website.However, since you have made it abundantly clear that quoting is against your religous beliefs, I searched the website, and I will grant you that Canada seems to make exceptions for “landed” people. However, there is no “instant citizenship” for millionares.
Considering your record so far on this thread, I’m going to give you a “gimme” on that one.
WTF did I post in Hebrew? Man, I’m not going back through this whole thread to find my hebrew post.
I won’t do it I tell you. I just won’t do it.
Eithe cut and paste my quote or admit that I didn’t post in Hebrew.
DO IT NOW!!!
I mean, Mr. Norman was kind enough to admit his error and accept the existence of Isreal. Would you please admit that I didn’t post in hebrew?
I’m sorry I’m sorry…
I’ll increase my dosage pronto and re-wrap my head in tinfoil to keep the zealot christian transmissions out.
We used to think that too…and then this thread popped up:)
hmmmm…
A thought with no rules, no cites, no allegience to the truth, fairy tale facts…
Ok, here is my effort to solve the problem over there.
It seems to me that this all revolves around land. Now what is land? Dirt!!! So I think what we should do, is move all the dirt out of Isreal and to another place. We will just pick it all up and move it. Wherever we put the dirt, we will take THAT dirt and move it to where Isreal USED to be. There is no oil there, so no one really has to worry about mineral rights. Then, once we move all the dirt out, we will flip a coin between the Palestinians and the Isrealis. Heads, Isrealis move to the old dirt, tails, Palestinians move to the old dirt.
Now this leaves a very touchy question of where do we put all this dirt? And how do we keep the zealot christians from fooling the arabs and digging up the wrong country? (big problem there!!)
Ahhh…The christian military defense contractor establishment has created a device clled GPS that lets you know where on earth you are. I propose to insert these devices in all torahs worldwide. The greatest concentration of torahs will provide us with the exact location of Isreal, and will provide an answer once and for all about whether or not it actually exists.
I suggest we just transplant them all to Texas. There is tons of room out there, and if they want to keep fighting over land rights, we can put them on the border of Mexico.
That way we can get a use out of them to help cover all the moving expenses. To fund this operation, I propose the UN asses a tax on every living human and all the transactions they participate in. We oculd use cutting edge technology to implant a device in their hand to report their monetary transactions. Any buying or selling without such a device would be illegal.
So…how do you like my plan?
That made my day.
Great Idea. There is lots o room out here in White Settlement, right on bomber road 'round back of Lockheed. Then when they need to pick up their F-16’s, they can just walk across the street! We can put in a take out window! I bet we even finally get the city to repave the road so I dont loose a a kidney riding my Harley to work.
When ya’ll bringing em over?
Sua,
Let me see if I can debunk the side of your barn, which is about as intellectual as the sandbox, or the BBQ pit as the site owners delicately put it.
You point out that the US does not sell to nations after the fact they finally achieve war and use this to support the idea that they would not therefore profit by it. Oh, this is deep thinking. Of course they don’t keep selling, because we finally don’t let them, but they understand this game, and they still stay in business because they supply whoever is trying to war with them, so your reasoning on this point does not hold any water and even sounds stupid. War is profit, you imply it is futile to sell arms and go to war and suffer a ban. However, as the ten major defense contractors know, it is never futile for arms dealers to prepare warring nations.
Also, you claim that Iranians aren’t Arabs, therefore “they don’t count.” Oh, you tipped your hand here, and I’m tempted to call you a poser. You said they don’t count on what basis? I think you imagine that you make the debate rules on what is allowed or what “counts”. I was talking Israel and just because I mentioned Arabs didn’t mean I was talking only about Arabs or excluding other Muslims in the region. Your arrogance is astounding in this one instance. “It doesn’t count…” Well, I don’t think you can count regardless, just by your monumentally stupid comment that Israel only costs 3 billion dollars. Gee, what is a huge US Army and Navy doing in the region, policing our friends? You fell on your popsicle here. And those allies you smugly imagine to exist all endure volatile inner struggles over the Israel issue, and we buy them off for it. So that cost money too all the way down the line.
By the way, by the same logic (did I mention logic before?) if the dictators of the middle-east find it easy to survive using Israel as their populist rally cry, then the conservative idiots who try to run this country can do the same trick. Did anyone stop to consider that the reason why wealthy oilmen and big ticket defense backers get elected is because they don’t dare contradict the will of the wealthy Jewish lobby, but in fact capitalize on it? Hell, even Al Gore picked Lieberman to get around this insanity. There is more to elections than anyone who enjoys the sandbox can fathom. The news conglomerates who favor Israel insure that this issue is moot and that Israel enjoys free military protection. Well, as an atheist, I don’t buy it. And I don’t buy that other atheists would get violently emotional over Israel and my assertions that rabid Christians support them (who in fact love Israel and go on vacations there).
So, Sua, or anybody else, did we come up with a solution? Status quo is fine? Should we make the Palestinians eat more shit, perhaps? Start another war and annex the middle-east as one poster suggested? Oh, but maybe he was an atheist too, so its a totally unbiased suggestion. When do we use the vapid logic on this thread and return North America to the Native Americans? I think the anti-intellectualism running through this thread speaks for itself. You are mostly buying into something over your head and the fact that no one can debate it logically proves it. Three posters on this page lamely suggested that we support Israel because they are our ally (Well, DUH!), wake up folks, even Sua avoided this lunatic proof, I think. America also supports Israel because we invented the stupid idea and “WE” DON’T WANT TO LOOK AS FOOLISH AS “WE” REALLY ARE! From now on when I think of circular logic, I will think of this thread.
Freedom2,
You forgot I said that the Israeli emigration page was in Hebrew, I think you even quoted it once, but not sure, I don’t read most of your posts, I did most the writing in them.
By the way, did you claim to be a non-Christian? And also afraid of the UN as a world order thing? Well, I’ve seen it all. So, the non-Christians in America are so weened on the drivel the lunatic fringe, they buy into it as well. Glad you think you’re funny on such a serious topic, at least someone does.