The Baseball Awards Voting Thread

Cafe Society
1

Let’s argue over who should win the baseball awards!

You vote for 10 people, 1-10, for MVP; 5 for Cy Young; 3 for Rookie of the Year.

My ballots:

National League - MVP

  1. David Wright, Mets
  2. Jimmy Rollins, Phillies
  3. Hanley Ramirez, Marlins
  4. Matt Holliday, Rockies
  5. Prince Fielder, Brewers
  6. Miguel Cabrera, Marlins
  7. Chase Utley, Phillies
  8. Troy Tulowitzki, Rockies
  9. Albert Pujols, Cardinals
  10. Jake Peavy, Padres

I realize Rollins is the huge, huge favourite, is a likeable guy,and his team won, but it’s not Wright’s fault that his team blew it; Wright played very well in the second half. He was legitimately more valuable. I’m not even convinced Rollins should be #2, but I do love him.

American League

  1. Alex Rodriguez, Yankees
  2. Magglio Ordonez, Tigers
  3. Jorge Posada, Yankees
  4. David Ortiz, Red Sox
  5. Ichiro Suzuki, Mariners
  6. Vlad Guerrero, Angels
  7. Victor Martinez, Indians
  8. C.C. Sabathia, Indians
  9. Carlos Pena, Devil Rays
  10. Grady Sizemore, Indians

I guess the 1-2 picks were ridiculously easy.

Cy Young Awards

National League

  1. Jake Peavy, Padres
  2. Brandon Webb, Diamondbacks
  3. Brad Penny, Dodgers
  4. Tim Hudson, Braves
  5. Cole Hamels, Phillies

Very close call there.

American League

  1. C.C. Sabathia, Indians
  2. Josh Beckett, Red Sox
  3. Fausto Carmona, Indians
  4. John Lackey, Angels
  5. Dan Haren, Athletics

Another close call.
Rookie of the Year

(Caveat; I am never 100% sure who is and is not a rookie)

National League

  1. Troy Tulowitzki, Rockies
  2. Ryan Braun, Brewers
  3. Hunter Pence, Astros

I realize Tulowitzki is not the sabermetrician’s choice. I don’t care; he was critical to the Rockies’ success, and I favour up-the-middle contributions. I think his defense may be even greater than people realize.

American League

  1. Dustin Pedroia, Red Sox
  2. Jeremy Guthrie, Orioles
  3. Brian Bannister, Royals

Pedroia, IMHO, is an easy choice.

2

I don’t follow the NL, so I can’t comment intelligently about it.

I definitely agree with your AL MVP 1 and 2.

I think the CY is too close to call. CC has so many more innings that it might push him over the top, but I would never count out a player on NYY or Boston. They simply get more positive press all the time.

3

I am going to cheap out and play off your list Rickjay. Your op is great as always. I am only going 3 deep for MVP.

American League MVP

  1. Alex Rodriguez, Yankees This is so clear cut this year, it might be unanimous.
  2. Magglio Ordonez, Tigers
  3. Jorge Posada, Yankees

National League - MVP

  1. Jimmy Rollins, Phillies *His team made it, Wright’s is sitting at home, he edges out Holliday. *
  2. Matt Holliday, Rockies
  3. David Wright, Mets

American League Cy Young

  1. C.C. Sabathia, Indians The Innings pitch puts him to the top to me.
  2. Josh Beckett, Red Sox
  3. John Lackey, Angels

National League Cy Young

  1. Jake Peavy, Padres
  2. Brandon Webb, Diamondbacks
  3. Brad Penny, Dodgers

*ERA, Wins and Winning percentage, mean I agree with your picks. *

4

Matt Holliday–the man who led the league in average, 2Bs, and RBIs–gets my vote for NL MVP. How you have him behind Hanley Ramirez is a complete mystery.

I agree 1-2 in the AL MVP will be Rodgriguez and Ordonez.

Peavy is the obvious NL Cy; I know some folks want Webb in there, but it isn’t really that close.

The AL Cy Young is very close; I could pick any one of those top 4 (Haren gives up the long ball too much for my taste). My guess is that Beckett will win as the two Cleveland pitchers split the voting and Lackey will suffer the usual anti-west-coast bias.

Braun is my choice for NL Rookie, probably because I watched a lot of Brewer games and can safely say he won more than a few for them with his bat. However, I have warmed up to your choice of Tulowitski.

Pedrtoia is the clear favorite for AL Rookie; there really isn’t anyone else.

5

I am in agreement almost 100% on everything else, but your NL MVP assesment is out to lunch - East coast bias at it’s most extreme. Rollins is a heavy favorite, but he shouldn’t be. His positives are the same or lesser than Ramirez’s. Put Ramirez on the Phillies and playing in that ballpark, his stats would overwhelm Rollins’. I don’t think there is any doubt. The case can be made that Rollins isn’t even the best shrtstop in the league.

Holliday is discounted because he plays in Coors Field. As you well know, there is little difference these days between Coors and Citizens Bank. This fact still seems lost on the sportswriters - Coors Field isn’t even close to what it was for the first decade of the Rockies existence thanks to the humidor. The fact is, Holliday is a better hitter for average on the road than Rollins is at home (.301 to .300). Lets look at some other offensive #'s:

hit for power: yes he did with 30 HR’s

All HR’s are not the same:

Rollins: 30 HR’s

20 solo shots
7 2 run
3 3 run

43 runs with 30 HR’s

Holliday: 36 HR’s

18 solo shots
14 2 run
5 3 run

61 runs with 36 HR’s

So Holliday’s 6 more HR’s actually created 18 more runs.

He racked up more TB than every other player except Holliday. Enough said:

Next positive: 380 TB’s. First one ever so let’s look at Hanley Ramirez to see how special this is.

Rollins: 716 AB’s 380 TB’s
Ramirez: 639 AB’s 359 TB’s

Rollins gained a base every .562 AB’s while Ramirez did it every .531 AB’s so…

If Ramirez would have had 716 AB’s and continued at the same pace he would have had 41 more TB’s or 400 hundred for the season. So this stat is benefitted by Rollins getting up so often making it not that extraordinary.

BTW Holliday had 386 TB’s in 636 AB’s at a .607 clip or if he would have had 716 AB’s and continued at the same pace, (which remember he finished hot), 49 more TB’s or 435 total.

Rollins numbers are inflated by his AB 's which is not a negative but should be taken into account.

Runs scored:

Rollins: 139
Ramirez: 125
Holliday: 120

Now per AB

Rollins: 139/716: 19.4%
Ramirez: 125/639: 19.6%
Holliday: 120/636: 18.9%

Ramirez had a greater % without Utley and and Howard hitting behind which might be because he was on base .386 to Rollins’ .344. And Holliday got on at a .405 clip.
As for the SB’s how do Rollins 41 SB’s compare to Ramirez’s 51?

Rollins’ OBP is pretty pathetic for an MVP candidate.

Defense:

Rollins gets points for playing a tougher defensive position, but his production vs. the league average is no better than Holliday’s. Holliday was 2nd in Fielding % and 5th in RF. Rollins was third in FPCT and 5th in RF. Rollins gets the edge here, but only due to the position he plays.

My rankings

  1. Holliday
  2. Rollins, by a hair over
  3. Ramirez
  4. Prince Fielder

No one else merits consideration.

6

Which is why I didn’t place him at #1. His place on my ballot is at least half sentiment.

First of all, that’s simply not true, and secondly, his road average isn’t a relevant point. Coors Field’s park effects have been brought down to reasonable levels with the humidor, but it’s still the most consistently hitter-happy park in the NL. Secondly, it doesn’t matter what Matt Holliday’s personal splits are; what matters is what his numbers mean in context.

There’s certainly a bona fide argument that Holliday was better, but I was pretty clear in my OP why I put Rollins above him. And East Coast bias doesn’t apply to me. Wright, meanwhile, was more valuable than Holliday by any analytical metric.

7

I agree with everything you’ve written, although I think the AL Cy Young is up in the air. I wouldn’t be surprised if Beckett won it. The number 20 has a strange effect on sportswriters for some reason. Personally, I don’t get it, but I agree with you that Sabathia should win it. He pitched a ton more innings and had better ERA than Beckett. He could have easily been 22-4 this year.

8

I’m a piss-poor baseball fan, as I only follow my Indians. I’ll comment on the Tribe tho…

I’m really glad that everyone is taking CC Sabathia seriously this year. His record is great, and he would actually have a few more wins if it wasn’t for horrible run support in August. He’d be over 20 wins for sure.

And kudos for recognizing the phenom that is Fausto Carmona. He was abysmal in his first couple games, and it was a fluke that he got to be on the starting rotation. Then, he took off like hellfire.

More kudos for recognizing Victor Martinez. Hafner had a sorry year and Sizemore was on-and-off. Victor produced constantly all year with both homers and small ball. His arm seemed to get better over the season, too, but he’s still not the best at throwing guys out at second. I love that we can put him at first or DH and let Shoppach catch and we’re still doing well. It’s no small feat to be both a decent catcher (the pitching staff praises his work) and a run producer. Let’s hope he makes it to the short list of great catchers.

I do agree with A-Rod as the AL MVP - that guy’s a monster. But, we’ll see what happens starting tonight if he’s an all-year monster or just a playa’. :wink:

9

Actually, Wrigley Field was the most hitter friendly park in the NL this year. Citizen’s Bank is small, so it greatly increases HR’s while decreasing doubles and triples. Coors is large so it increases hits in general, but it is only fifth in HR’s this year. Philadelphia and Cincinatti are far, far ahead of the pack. A leadoff man in a bandbox (especially when followed by guys hitting 99 HR’s between them) should score a ton of runs.

Ehh, Toronto is every bit a big-media East Coast city as Philadelphia is.

10

I meant to post these (statistically insignifigant, but interesting) statistics from Matt Holliday at Citizen’s BB in 2007 -

Games - 4
Runs - 7
Hits - 6
1b - 1
2b - 1
HR -4
RBI - 8
BB - 3
AVG - .429
OBP - .556
SLG - 1.357
OPS - 1.913

11

Wow… I assume that your omission of David Wright was an oversight? Otherwise, I’d be very curious to hear why you think he doesn’t merit consideration.
He’s second in RC, fourth in OPS+ (behind Chipper, Pujols and Fields), and plays at least an average 3B if not better that that. Frankly, I can’t see any reasonable argument than puts anyone other than Wright or Holliday at the top spot.
I’d rank it
Wright
Holliday
(BIG gap)
Ramirez
Fielder
Pujols
Rollins
Chipper
Peavy
Cabrera
Webb

12

I like Wright, he was my choice until the last day of the season. Wright is sitting at home and Rollins is playing. When the players at the top are close, I never vote for a player on a team that failed. Not everyone votes this way, but it is common enough that you should not act surprise that Wright slips down several pegs on other people’s lists.

I even thought it would be cool to have the two NY Third Baseman walk away with the MVP. So, this is not an anti-Met thing, I just almost always vote for a player whose team advances to the post-season.

Jim

13

Yeah, well, Abraham Nunez is still playing, doesn’t mean he’s a better MVP candidate than Wright.
Looking at it further, I’m still rating Rollins too high. You can make an argument that he’s only the fourth best player on his team - Howard, Utley and Aaron Rowand all have better stats than Rollins (triples and Runs Scored notwithstanding). Playing time matters, though, so Rollins gets credit for that over Howard and Utley… but Aaron Rowand played in 161 games, and played at least an average CF. The only clear advantage Rollins has over Rowand is SB.

Rollins was below league average in what’s probably the most important stat of all - OBP.

14

Then give it to Holliday, he came up huge to get the Rockies into the Post Season. A lot of this is opinion, nothing about Wright, playing on a team that failed, puts him at the top of my list. When there are good candidates on teams that made it, the MVP should not come from a team that did not. But hey, **Rickjay ** agrees with you, which I do not get. MVP is not the best player, but the most valuable. Which traditionally heavily favors a team that makes the post season.

Jim

15

NLMVP

  1. Wright
  2. Holliday
  3. Rollins
  4. Ramirez
  5. Fielder

I had Holliday penciled in right until I was about to hit submit. Wright’s second half was too good.

ALMVP

  1. ARod
  2. Ordonez
  3. Vlad
  4. Posada
  5. Ortiz

I tried all I could to rationalize putting Vlad number one but the best I could do is three. Put ARod behind him next year and watch what he does.

AL Cy Young

  1. Sabathia
  2. Beckett
  3. Carmona
  4. Lackey
  5. Bedard

Bedard deserves to be listed and would be up the list a little futher had he not been injured. Despite his record, Santana is probably sixth. Sabathia is an easy number one though. K/BB is great, good era. Good on him.

NL Cy Young

  1. Peavy
  2. Webb
  3. Smoltz
  4. Penny
  5. Hudson
  6. Hamels

Number one is easy, two isn’t that tough either. Beyond that I really had to do some research. What I found out is that Smoltz had a heck of a season. 1.18 WHIP, 81% Quality Starts, 5 tough losses, and a decent ERA. This list needed six people I figure. If you go beyond 1 and 2 the numbers beside their name mean very little.

AL ROY

  1. Dustin Pedroia
  2. Jeremy Guthrie

NL ROY

  1. Troy Tulowitzky
  2. Ryan Braun

AL is pretty easy, but the NL was tough. Defense won me over as well.

16

Ask for an atlas for Christmas, dude.

There’s no difference between “best” and “Most Valuable.” The best baseball player is the player who adds the most wins to the W column, and the most valuable player is the player who adds the most wins to the W column. A=B=C. Wright can still be more valuable than Holliday or Rollins even if the other Mets were not as valuable as the other Phillies or the other Rockies.

The MVP Award is an individual performance award by definition. It’s illogical to have such an award and then base your vote on what an individual’s teammates did. The award for team performance is a World Series ring.

17

I disagree, but I wonder, will you at least concede that my definition is closer to the generally consider norm, even if yours is logically correct?

Jim

18

I agree with you, except all of the awards are based on teams. How about the Cy Young? A couple of years ago, Kevin Millwood pitched incredibly well for Cleveland and led the league in ERA, but his record was below .500. He wasn’t even an afterthought in the CY.

19

It depends. There have been years when the voters considered contribution to winning teams, and years when they gave the award to guys on bad teams (Ripken in 1990, Dawson in 1987) or teams that had choked, like the Mets did (Bell in 1987.)

Frankly, most years I have no goddamned idea why they vote the way they do. The main indicator is whomever had the most RBIs.

He did get one vote.

But Millwood didn’t lose the Cy Young because his team was bad; he lost the Cy Young because the voters incorrectly perceived that HE was bad. The voters ascriber individual credit for W-L record where it’s often not merited, and it’s quickly obvious that team performance has nothing to do with it. Millwood - who, in fairness, didn’t deserve the Cy Young Award - lost support mainly because voters blamed HIM for going 9-11, even though, really, it was the fault of his teammates. Had he gone 17-3 even with Cleveland otherwise having a bad year, he’d have gotten big support.

The voters have never been the slightest bit shy to give the Cy Young to a pitcher on a bad team if the pitcher had a good W-L record.

20

It’s not about geography, dude. I know, it’s illogical. It’s illogical for the Rockies to be one game from the NLCS and the Mets to be playing golf, too. But still true.