The Baseball Hall of Fame Class of 2011 thread

The Game Room
1

It’s the last Monday in November so that meansit’s time for the Baseball Writers’ Association of America to announce who’s on the ballot for the next year’s Hall of Fame. This year’s new candidates include Jeff Bagwell, Larry Walker and suspected steroid users Rafael Palmeiro and Juan Gonzalez. Holdovers include Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Dan Mattingley, Jack Morris, and Alan Trammell.

So, who would you pick? Who do you think will get in? Should a player’s alleged steroid use automatically disqualify him from selection? Let’s discuss.

2

As a Twins fan, I’d like to see Bert Blyleven get in. He was real close last year. He was a very good pitcher for a number of years, but he often played for crappy teams.

I think steroid use will keep a number of players out for a long time. I’m looking at you, Palmeiro.

3

Bagwell, Alomar, Larkin, Blyleven from that list should get in. Will? I think Blyleven gets over the top this year, along with Alomar. Bagwell I honestly have no idea how the HoF voters will evaluate.

4

Larry Walker - Walker was a wonderfully talented player, and would be on my list were he not always hurt, but he was always hurt, so no.

Roberto Alomar- No brainer. Yes.

Carlos Baerga - No, obviously, but it’s easy to forget that for a few years Baerga was a freaking awesome player. Possibly a faked birth certificate guy.

Jeff Bagwell - I don’t remember, is he on the roid list? I don’t think so. Yes.

Harold Baines - No.

Bert Blyleven - Yes. There’s no point arguing this one any further; he was as good a pitcher as Nolan Ryan and if you don’t believe me, well, it’s a free country.

Bret Boone - What is this, Names That End In B Year? No.,

Kevin Brown - Brown is one of 3 major leaguers named Kevin Brown, and for a few years they were all in the show at the same time, so I hoped they picked the right one.

It is interesting to see how far the understanding of baseball statistics has come; Brown in 1996 should have won the Cy Young Award, but it went to John Smoltz, who won more games but because he pitched with a much better team behind him. Today, Brown would probably have won.

Anyway, Brown was a hell of a pitcher for a long time and actually he’d be a decent choice, but I can’t say he’s the best available pitcher not in… I’m undecided on this one. He was very underrated.

**John Franco **- I believe Franco pitched for 98 years and was the only man to be teammates with both Walter Johnson and Roger Clemens. Or something like that. I say no, but maybe that’s my bias against relief pitchers talking.

Juan Gonzalez - To my amazement, Juan Gonzelez is the only man named Juan Gonzalez to ever play in the majors. Isn’t that amazing? We had three Kevin Browns at the same time but just one Juan Gonzalez, which in terms of commonness of Hispanic names is analagous to “John Smith.”

Anyway, Gonzalez is alleged to have roided up. Even if we assume he was as clean as a whistle, he really would be a poor choice; he was a hell of a home run hitter but didn’t do much else well and had a short career. No.

Marquis Grissom - No. It is telling of the standards we apply to Baseball Hall of Famers that I am 100% certain Grissom won’t get 25 votes, but the guy was a hell of a ballplayer. Once went 11-for-21 in a playoff series, with three home runs.

Lenny Harris - I was amazed his name was on the ballot, so I looked him up - he played 18 seasons? Really? Wow. No, obviously.

Bobby Higginson - No.

Charles Johnson - No. It is interesting to note that according to Wins Above Replacement, Higginson and Johnson were effectively as good as each other, thought obviously Higginson was a way better hitter. Says a lot about the value of a good defensive catcher.

Barry Larkin - Yes. Multitalented hitter and an exceptional defensive player.

**Al Leiter **- No

Edgar Martinez - The most one-dimensional serious HoF candidate of all time. All in all, I’d say yes; he really was that good a hitter.

Tino Martinez - A really good player and all, but no.

Don Mattingly - I go back and forth on Mattingly but the fact is he was only really good for about six years and even then it wasn’t like he was Barry Bonds. No.

Fred McGriff - Sort of the opposite of Mattingly, a really good player, but quiet, was never a megastar, never had a huge year in a really big market, but rather had a lot of solid years over a long period of time. One of the few players to ever lead both leagues in home runs. Just not quite great enough, in my opinion.

Mark McGwire - There is little I can add to this discussion. I think McGwire is a Hall of Famer, and I know he disgraced himself, but I’ll say yes and hope history treats him well.

Raul Mondesi - No.

Mondesi was acquired by the Blue Jays after the 1999 season in exchange for Shawn Green. The Jays only would have had Green for 2000; nonetheless I believe this might have actually been the worst trade in the history of the Blue Jays, and I frigging called it. Even then I was saying “I’d rather have Shawn Green for one year plus the draft picks we’ll get when he leaves than have Raul Mondesi for the rest of Mondesi’s career.” Mondesi was expensive, mediocre, and an asshole and the Jays ended up paying the Yankees to take him.

Jack Morris - Another one people get emotional about. I say no, but I wouldn’t be angry if he got in.

Morris during his career was known for being a bit of a jackass. I’ve seen him a few times since he retired and he’s a completely different man, remarkably kind and generous and accomodating. Maybe that’s just how some people stay competitive.

Dale Murphy - In a group with Dwight Evans and Fred McGriff and a bunch of other really good but not quite there guys. No.

John Olerud - See above. No. I will never quite forgive Cito Gaston for driving Olerud out of town.

Rafael Palmiero - No. Despite all the homers he’s not an A-grade candidate and with the roids and generally being a jackass, the hell with him.

**Dave Parker **- See Dale Murphy.

Parker was one of many players caught up in the 1980s cocaine scandals. In retrospect, what was the big deal? If some idiot wanted to snort his career up his nose why was MLB so fussed about it, and then did nothing for years about drugs that actually threatended the integrity of the game? Isn’t it a shame that such a wonderful sport is run by idiots?

Tim Raines - Yes. Underrated.

**Kirk Reuter **- Really?

Benito Santiago - Or, as my buddy Scott calls him, BENITOOOOOOOOO SANTIAAAAAGOOOOO… SANTIAGO. As he was always announced at Pac Bell. Anyway, he’s not even close.

Lee Smith- No.

BJ Surhoff - Like Harold Baines and John Franco, Surhoff played for over a thousand years, and was in the minors with The Venerable Bede.

Here’s one for you; for the first eight years of his career, from the ages of 22 through 29, Surhoff’s home run totals were 7, 5, 5, 6, 5, 4, 7, and 5, seven of those years being full time play. Then he started hitting way more homers, going as high as 28. Has anyone else ever so clearly established themselves as NOT being a power hitter, for that long, and then started hitting bunches of them?

Alan Trammell - Another very underrated player. Yes.

5

If I had a vote:

Larry Walker - too short a peak, heightened by altitude, lessened by injury.

Roberto Alomar- Not on my watch. I just despise the guy. He’ll go, but no thanks to me.

Carlos Baerga - Alomar jr. And I don’t mean Sandy. When he got to NY, he stopped playing, and that’s when I started watching closely and daily.

Jeff Bagwell - Yes.

Harold Baines - No.

Bert Blyleven - Yes. .

Bret Boone - No.

Kevin Brown - No

John Franco - No. He sucked eggs.
Juan Gonzalez - No.

Marquis Grissom - No.

Lenny Harris - Don’t be silly.

Bobby Higginson - Don’t be silly

Charles Johnson - Don’t be ridiculous

Barry Larkin - No.

Al Leiter - No

Edgar Martinez - No.

Tino Martinez -No.

Don Mattingly - No.

Fred McGriff - No. This is a Hall of Fame, not a Hall of “Who?”

Mark McGwire - Over my dead body. Elect him to the Hall of “This is not about the Past,” if you like.

Raul Mondesi - No.

Jack Morris - No.

Dale Murphy - No.

John Olerud - No.

Rafael Palmiero - No.

Dave Parker No.

Tim Raines - Yes.

Kirk Reuter - Who?

Benito Santiago - SIlly.

Lee Smith- No.

BJ Surhoff -No

Alan Trammell - No.

6

He’s the all-time leader in pinch hits. No, I don’t think he belongs in the hall either.

7

I’d vote for Alomar, Bagwell, Blyleven, Larkin, Edgar Martinez, McGriff and Smith.

Palmiero and McGwire I’m undecided about. I hate that so many big names took the steroids. I’d love to punish all of them as a class, but darned if a Hall of Fame without Bonds, A-Rod and Clemens feels right. It’s not like Shoeless Joe or Pete Rose where they were individuals rather than the entire upper tier of a generation.

8

I assume you mean the Indians. Fine, we can take it. It’s good to see so much love for the Dutchman here.

Re Alomar: Up till earlier this year, I would have said yes. He’s done a lot of nasty, but the talent overrode it. Now, like pseudotriton ruber ruber, I just can’t overlook what a bastard he is. No.

9

My problem with the 'roiders, suspected 'roiders, bettors, and HIV-infectors (plus other miscreants) is the character issue. The HOF is designed to weed out those of questionable character, as well as mediocrity on the field. In my ideal world (and yes, the sky is a nice purple on my planet) we’d have a separate wing, the coulda-been-elected-except-they-were- scumbags wing, where McGwire would hang out with Ty Cobb, Clemens could rub elbows with Eddie Cicotte, and Rose could pal around with Joe Jackson, and when we’d take our kids to Cooperstown we’d explain, “Yes, they were excellent ballplayers on the field, but the HOF measures how you behave off the field too. Now, let me show you Stan Musial’s plaque in the next building–he was a real man. And Sandy Koufax, too…”

10

BTW, I wiki’ed Kevin Brown because I didn’t remember that all three Kevin Browns were contemporaries of each other (**RickJay **was correct) and discovered this passage about his steriod use, which I can summarize as “Fuck him, too”:

11

I’d vote for Robbie and Bert. I suspect they’re the ones going in, too.

12

Well, no, it isn’t. It’s designed to make money for the town of Cooperstown, if you want to get technical, but in terms of who’s selected it’s designed to honor excellence in baseball, not “Weed out” anything. The idea is not to “weed out” Kelly Gruber, it’s to honor Brooks Robinson.

Weeding out guys who were assholes off the field strikes me as being impossible. For one thing the information’s just not complete; most Hall of Famers I know essentially nothing about in terms of their off-the-field antics, or you might find out after they’re elected, as with Kirby Puckett. Unless you’re going to dramatically change the HoF process to include some sort of public disclosure of private habits thing, there’s no way the voters will be equipped with more than a tiny fraction of the pertinent facts if they’re asked to consider whether or not the candidate was a nice guy.

I mean, Mike Schmidt wsa a great ballplayer, but in terms of what kind of a guy he’s like off the field I really don’t have a clue. Maybe he’s a saint. Maybe he beats his wife and cheats on his taxes. Maybe he gives to charity; maybe he once murdered a prostitute. The evidence of what Mike Schmidt did on the field is open and complete and subject to almost total scrutiny, and it’s unambiguously the case that Schmidt was an awesome ballplayer. What he did OFF the field, I really can’t tell you. I don’t have any reason to think he’s an asshole, but I don’t know, and to be honest I don’t care, and to be even more honest I don’t think we want a HoF that spends all its time investigating that.

Behaviour that affects ON-FIELD performance, such as gambling or steroids, is to my mind a different issue. So I think one could count Alomar’s spitting incident with John Hirschbeck as something to consider, though in the grand scheme of things it’s not any worse than Juan Marichal trying to kill Johnny Roseboro, or any one of a dozen things Ty Cobb did, and so on.

Anyway, I’m way off topic. Let’s get back to debating the merits of Jeff Bagwell.

13

Well, this is the HOF election thread, so I don’t how off-topic you can get discussing the qualifications for election to the HOF. You want to open up a separate thread, feel free.

Your point about weeding out is mostly semantic, as you know. Whether the HOF’s function is to weed out or include, it adds up exactly the same: some deserving guys are voted in, and undeserving guys are not voted in. I don’t know where it says what the purpose of the HOF is–Bill James covered the vague aims of the HOF in his Rizzuto/Reese book, but I do remember the word “character” being among the attributes it considers. Voters in the past have largely overlooked character in electing certain scumbags I noted above, but it has also on occasion ruled out others-- Jackson, Cicotte, Rose, et al.-- and I’d like to broaden that factor. As time goes on, we will find out more and more about various players, and as the HOF has shown, a mistake is impossible to review. There are enough men on your list of impeccable playing abiity and no suspicion of their character that we can elect from that list while discussing the virtues and vices of such (IMO), of course) despicable scumbags such as Bonds, Clemens, Alomar, McGwire for a couple of more decades.

14

Kirk Rueter’s Hall of Fame Resume: Zero-time all-star and 7th in RoY voting.

I say he’s in.

15

Alomar, Bagwell, Larkin, Morris, Murphy. All the dominant names at their positions when they played, or nearly so plus the Big Moments that Fame (see “Hall of”) is about.

Blyleven will get in despite not having improved his game a whit since he retired. Murphy and Larkin will not. The users will have to wait a little longer for more perspective to be applied.

16

Alomar, Bagwell, Blyleven, Larkin, Edgar Martinez, McGwire, Raines, Trammell. And I could probably be talked into Kevin Brown if some clever guy put in the effort. I tend to be pretty inclusive in my HOF standards.
Looking back at the MVP voting for some of these guys is kinda infuriating. Juan Gonzales won the AL MVP in 1996, in one of the bigger crocks of shit of which I’m aware. He played 134 games – 102 in RF, and the other 32 as a DH – and put up a line of .314/.368/.643. In 2nd place that year was Alex Rodriguez, a fucking shortstop (and a good one) who, in 85 more Plate Appearances than Gonzales, had a line of .358/.414/.631. Other candidates that year who were superior to Gonzales were: Albert Belle, Ken Griffey Jr., Frank Thomas … hell, almost the whole damn field. Look at that page. Does anyone remember whatever meme was floating around in the press that led to Gonzales’ winning? I’m sure it was impressively stupid.

In the NL that same year, Ken Caminiti (.326/.408/.621) won; though he wasn’t the best candidate, it wasn’t an historically idiotic choice. What *was *preposterous, however, was that he received 100% of the 1st place votes. Really? There wasn’t one writer who thought that Barry Bonds (who finished 5th) hadn’t done something really cool with his .308/.461/.615? Or that maybe it’s significant when the guy who hits .336/.422/.563 is a catcher? Ok, Bonds gets dinged because his team finished in last place (not his fault, but whatever), but Piazza’s Dodgers finished one game behind the Padres for the NL West. Presumably, if Tom Candiotti had been just a little less mediocre that year, then Mike Piazza would have been more deserving of the MVP. How does that make sense?

Also silly is Edgar Martinez’s ridiculous 1995 season not winning him an MVP. He hit .356/.479/.628. And I do get that people would be reluctant to vote for a DH because he contributes nothing defensively, but the two players who finished ahead weren’t playing premium defensive positions, nor were they even corner guys who happened to be slick with the glove. The two players ahead of Martinez were Mo Vaughn and Albert Belle.

17
  1. Blyleven
  2. Alomar
  3. Raines
  4. Larkin

Larkin won’t get in, the other three should have been no-brainers in previous years. Raines is even getting overlooked in this thread, which is a shame.

18

I’d vote for the Mighty Murph if I had a ballot. No roids issues, no character issues that I know of, and an underrated performer on some really bad teams.

19

Should we make a poll out of this-same rules as the BBWAA, 10 candidates per voter on the honor system?

Anyway, for me it’s Raines, Blyleven, Larkin, Edgar (not Tino!), Bagwell, Raines, Trammell, McGwire, Brown, and Palmiero. My threshold is about “60% of the top players already in the Hall”, and all of these players sail pretty smoothly over the edge. I’m no steroid moralizer, and believe that in 50 years people will look back and wonder what all the outrage was about.

20

If Raines is elected I hope they let Kenny Lofton in too.