The Baseball HOF Class of 2009 thread

Well you both made your case but Jimmy Chitwood, don’t pretend you didn’t cherry-pick the stats to make your case. You are also overvaluing Ks I think.

Maybe Bert deserves to go in but what happened to simple things like excellence. John had years of excellence and Bert had one year.

I remember Bert and I don’t remember a great pitcher. I remember a very good pitcher. I think he belongs more to the Hall of very good players and not great players. He is a compiler that failed to compile to the magic numbers.

Also how does he compare to Jim Kaat with the saberstats?

Now, now. Don’t make accusations of dishonesty and then stop there; back them up! What important stats did I leave out while I was cherrypicking? Hits? Hit by pitch? Saves? Jesus, the post took me long enough to put together when anybody can just go to baseball-reference.com himself; the least you could do when you tell me I’m trying to pull a fast one is tell me why you’re saying it. What stats did I cherry-pick? How am I overvaluing anything when all I do is list the numbers? My cards are on the table. If Tommy John was a better pitcher than Bert Blyleven, that’s fine with me. I never saw either one of them pitch, as far as I can remember. I don’t give a crap about Bert Blyleven. But this is a thread about humans who did baseball things. I just posted a list comparing the baseball things of one guy to the baseball things of another guy. Where’d I go wrong?

But anyway, “simple things like excellence,” “years of excellence,” “not great but very good,” “compiler,” and “magic numbers” are exactly the kinds of stupid arguments I was talking about before. We have two pitchers. One gave up fewer runs, pitched more innings and completed more games, struck out more batters, and allowed fewer baserunners. What else is there? First I asked you what you wanted to see. You said make my case, so I did my best. Is there something else I can post that will defeat an argument like “Well, he wasn’t excellent enough”? I have demonstrated those baseball things that I think Bert Blyleven did better than Tommy John. What else do you want? I don’t have an excellence meter, or an anti-compilation graph to show you; I just have things like “number of times opposing player failed to succeed against.”

Have you considered that perhaps your memory, and not the numbers, are the problem here?

I’d like to see the Mighty Murph make it. Gave all he had on some pitiful teams. Put up good numbers, maybe hurt himself by hanging on too long. 2 MVPs, 5 gold gloves, squeeky clean.

Henderson, McGwire, Morris, Blyleven.

Mattingly makes the next round.

• Harold Baines

No. Good hitter for a long time, but not a lot of greatness.

• Jay Bell

Very good player, but, again, little greatness. It would be hard to justify voting for him with better shortstops on the ballot.

• Bert Blyleven

As good a pitcher as Nolan Ryan. Yes.

• David Cone

Career not long enough.

• Andre Dawson

Immensely talented player, but he just didn’t et on base enough. He wouldn’t be an awful pick, but would not quite make my ballot.

• Ron Gant

Obviously not.

• Mark Grace

Very good, never really great. Career too short for him to g et the big counting stats.

• Rickey Henderson

Easy yes pick. One of the fifty greatest players of all time.

• Tommy John

Meh. Fifty-fifty. He wouldn’t be a terrible choice.

• Don Mattingly

Too short a career.

• Mark McGwire

Great player, but I don’t know what to make of the roids. I’m inclined to say yes. He was never shown to be a cheat. He was great.

• Jack Morris

Always a #1 starter, but he was never at any time a truly elite pitcher.

• Dale Murphy

Burned out a little too early.

• Jesse Orosco

Orosco pitched for about 73 years and there’s something to be said for that, but - like almost ALL relief pitchers - he never had any season when he was as valuable as the average season put up by a lot of guys on this list. He had some big yuears early in his career but for the rest of his career, the average Orosco season was about as valuable as the average Rance Mulliniks season. Relief pitchers who throw 50, 60 innings a year just aren’t that valuable.

• Dave Parker - No

See Dale Murphy.

• Dan Plesac

See Jesse Orosco.

• Tim Raines

Absolutely YES. One of the greatest players of his time and one of the most underrated players of all time.

• Jim Rice

Just doesn’t have enough. He could hit, I don’t doubt it.

• Lee Smith

Orosco 3.0. Sounds like a Web browser.

• Alan Trammell

Possibly. Trammell is very underrated; he did many things pretty well, for a long time. I would not be upset at all if he were elected.

• Greg Vaughn
• Mo Vaughn

One if the big guy who played left, one the big guy who played first. Both hit homers and burned out early. Both are not Hall of Famers.

• Matt Williams

Nah.
So my ballot is:

Blyleven
Raines
Henderson
McGwire
Wouldn’t mind their election:

John
Trammell

But McGwire’s home runs are in the PAST, Rick, and Mark told Congress he isn’t interested in the past.

So, it’s only fair to Mark that we obey his wishes, and ignore what he did in the past.

ALL of it.

Otherwise, I agree with Henderson, Raines & Blyleven. And probably Alan Trammell.

Yeah, this. I think the whole steroids issue is one where I’ve given all the “benefit of the doubt” I’m going to give. I’m just tapped out. Character is specifically mentioned in the voting considerations, and it’s a big consideration for me, which 'roids negates. You want to protect your ass from self-incrimination? Okay, fine, but if you’ve got to surrender all your character points to do it, this is where it hurts ya, where character counts.

I’m apparently in the minority, but I kinda liked the theme of McGwire’s infamous testimony. The steroids thing had a definite air of witch-hunt around it, and refusing to partake seems like the most honorable course (even if you do happen to be a witch).

Excuse me, but Eric “Sleeping With” Bienemy begs to differ.

Ballot:
Ricky Henderson
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire

I could respect that, a little tiny bit, if McGwire had said just that. “Senator, I think this inquiry is illegitimate, and I refuse to answer your questions because I think you lack the moral and legal authority to ask them of me.” But this whole self-righteous, handwaving, “Let’s move on” bullshit? If taken seriously, we’d see people hitting more HRs in a season than they have plate appearances soon enough.

Henderson only.
Hall of Very Good:

Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Tommy John

Since the ballot is a little thin this year, I’m going to be very interested in the selections. I always like to complain about the Yankees/Red Sox bias so I wonder if that will let Mattingly or Rice slide in.

Well, there’s your problem, right there. I mean, I can barely - just barely - count on my own memory when it comes to remembering seven items on a grocery list dictated by my wife when I left the house this morning. Trying to use “what I remember” about a baseball player who retired more than a decade ago as a measure of how good that player was relative to other players who retired more than a decade ago is a fool’s errand, especially in a context as emotional as this.

To put it in more personal terms: in a purely subjective sense I remember Keith Hernandez as the greatest player who ever lived. I remember him as the clutchest hitter there ever was, the best defensive first baseman of all time, an RBI machine, a career .300 hitter, and a World Series hero for my favorite baseball team. Some of those things, it turns out, were true; some were not. But for an eight-year-old kid learning about baseball as a Mets fan in the mid-1980’s, Mex was the greatest - better than Straw, better than Doc, and certainly better than that cheap imitation you guys were admiring over in the Bronx. Keith Hernandez is a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer in the Hall That Exists Entirely in My Own Memory and Childhood Imagination, and that has a value and it’s real, and I don’t want to denigrate it or diminish it.

But when we establish a Hall of Fame in the real world, a Hall of Fame for all fans, relying on subjective impressions isn’t good enough, because subjective impressions are usually wrong. Keith Hernandez only hit .296 for his career, and drove in 100 runs only once. He was an on-base machine without real first-baseman home run power. But I saw fifteen or twenty Mets games in person between 1984 and 1988, and I remember a couple of well-timed line-drive home runs and a few runners thrown out at third on attempted sacrifice bunts; I can’t remember every time Hernandez came up to bat in 17 years.

Similarly, you remember Tommy John as a great pitcher who had “a simple thing like excellence,” and Bert Blyleven as a good pitcher who did not. But you’re a Yankees fan, and the Yankees are a famous team, and I’ll hazard a guess that you saw a lot more of Tommy John than you did of Bert Blyleven, so you’d maybe have to say that your memory is limited in reliability.

So we take the results of every single game that either man pitched, which are in and of themselves nothing more mystical than the outcome of every at-bat during which he was the pitcher, and we compile them, and we look at them. And then we can say things, objectively, about these pitchers free of the influence of unreliable memory.

For instance, you say this:

I submit that this statement is factually untrue.

Tommy John’s best season was probably 1968, when he was 10-5 with an ERA of 1.98 and an ERA+ of 161 in 177.3 innings. Blyleven’s best was 1973, when he was 20-17 with an ERA of 2.52 and an ERA+ of 158 in 325 (!!!) innings. John was a bit more effective when he pitched, but Blyleven pitched nearly twice as many innings so I’m calling it a draw.

So there’s the “one year” for each of them. Now let’s look at those years of excellence.

Tommy John’s next five best years, as measured by ERA+ (and excluding seasons where he pitched fewer than 100 innings):

1977 - (20-7, 220 innings, 2.78 ERA, 138 ERA+, 123K/55BB, 11 CG, 3 SHO)
1979 - (21-9, 276 innings, 2.96 ERA, 137 ERA+, 111K/66BB, 17 CG, 3 SHO)
1981 - (9-8, 140 innings, 2.63 ERA, 135 ERA+, 50K/39BB, 7 CG, 0 SHO)
1974 - (13-3, 153 innings, 2.59 ERA, 132 ERA+, 78K/42BB, 5 CG, 3 SHO)
1967 - (10-13, 178 innings, 2.47 ERA, 121 ERA+, 110K/47BB, 9 CG, 6 SHO)

These were Tommy John’s “years of excellence,” the years in which he was at his best. Now Blyleven’s five best years, not including his 1973.

1977 - (14-12, 235 innings, 2.72 ERA, 151 ERA+, 182K/89BB, 15 CG, 5 SHO)
1984 - (19-7, 245 innings, 2.87 ERA, 144 ERA+, 170K/74BB, 12 CG, 4 SHO)
1974 - (17-17, 281 innings, 2.66 ERA, 142 ERA+, 249K/77BB, 19 CG, 3 SHO)
1989 - (17-5, 241 innings, 2.73ERA, 140 ERA+, 131K/44 BB, 8 CG, 5 SHO)
1985 - (17-16, 294 innings, 3.16 ERA, 134 ERA+, 206K/75BB, 24 CG, 5 SHO)

So leaving aside the peak years of each pitcher, Blyleven’s 1977 was clearly better than John’s 1977. Blyleven’s 1984 was roughly comparable to John’s 1979, but I’ll give the slight edge to Tommy John. But there is absolutely no argument that Bert Blyleven was significantly better in 1974, 1989, and 1985 than Tommy John was in 1981, 1974, and 1967, respectively. So of their six best years, Blyleven was significantly better than John in four, roughly equal in one, and slightly worse in one.

How then can you justify characterizing Tommy John’s best years as “years of excellence” but refuse to credit Blyleven for the same?

I mean, those statistics mean things. Look at all those shutouts - those are marks of dominance in individual games. Look at all those innings; those suggest that his excellence was prolonged and sustainable, not the result of a few flukey years. All those strikeouts!

Bert Blyleven is a Hall-of-Famer.

At first glance and without really digging into the numbers, I’d say Blyleven eats Jim Kaat’s lunch (Tommy John does, too). Kaat seems to me to be a guy with three great years who was otherwise a somewhat but not dramatically above average starter for 22 years.

Well when you leave off minor little stats like Winning percentage.

I think you have done more to convince me though that John does not deserve to go than Bert does.

I haven’t seen what this would do to any of the candidates, but I’ve always liked the idea of setting the cutoff for some all-inclusive stat like Win Shares extremely high–say at 20 Win Shares (30 being a normal MVP candidate, 20 being a normal All-Star candidate)–and then counting up, which would essentially eliminate all accumulated numbers, which is what TJ and to some extent Blyleven bring to the table. What I’m looking for in a HOFer is above and beyond mere longevity at an above average level. I want excellence. I want to count a typical 13-11, 3.90 ERA in 188 IP year as basically nothing, a 18-9, 3.20 ERA in 220 IP for a few points, and a 24-6 2.35 ERA in 275 IP for a lot.

As I say, I’m not sure who this favors specifically here, but I think we give too many points for seasons that accumulate stats that aren’t especially excellent stats. Mattingly would get more points than someone with a longer career with lower peaks, probably, and that’s not unfair, though I’m just not sure that Donnie B. would end up with enough peak seasons to get in.

For example, Willie Mays laps Mantle in total career Win Shares, 642 to 565, but if we didn’t count anything below 30 in seasons (that is, counting ONLY MVP-type years, which is a very high standard for HOF considerations, of course) Mantle beats Mays handiily, 99 to 88, which is about right. Mantle’s best years were better than Mays’s best years, and both clearly had enough great years to qualify, unlike Mattingly, who had only two seasons above 30 WS. Hmmm, that’s clearly out by any standard.

Here’s a quick comparison of some (arbitrarily picked) stats for John, Blyleven, Morris, Kaat, and as a baseline for contemporary HOF pitchers, Steve Carlton:

Seasons

TJ - 26
BB - 22
JM - 18
JK - 25
SC - 24

AVG IP

TJ - 219
BB - 245
JM - 241
JK - 202
SC - 245

W

TJ - 288
BB - 287
JM - 244
JK - 283
SC - 329

L

TJ - 231
BB - 250
JM - 186
JK - 237
SC - 244

ERA+

TJ - 110
BB - 118
JM - 105
JK - 107
SC - 115

WHIP

TJ - 1.283
BB - 1.198
JM - 1.296
JK - 1.259
SC - 1.247

K/BB Ratio

TJ - 1.8
BB - 2.8
JM - 1.8
JK - 2.3
SC - 2.3

What does all of this mean? It means I’m bored at work. But it also means (to me) that Jack Morris should not be so easily dismissed. I also think it shows Blyleven slightly better than John and Kaat.

This is a really interesting idea and I would love to see it executed.

Harold Baines - No
Would have been interesting if he hit the magic number. Would the writers still have kept him out?

Jay Bell - No
Had a nice late career resurgence. Not a hall of famer mind you, but still impressive.

Bert Blyleven - Yes
Put him on merely average teams he would win 300, and we wouldn’t need this conversation. Some day the voters will under context, and they are slowly getting there, but it is a long journey.

David Cone - No
My first favorite player. One of the best journeymen pitchers ever, but peak was a little short.

Andre Dawson - No
No strong opinion either way.

Ron Gant - No
Those early 90’s Braves outfields were pretty special

Mark Grace - No
Another player that I loved. Great commentator too. Unfortunately a whole of singles aren’t enough to make Grace a viable candidate.

Rickey Henderson - Yes
Inner Circle Hall of Famer

Tommy John - No
Being very good for a long time has value, but not enough to make up for a lackluster peak (for Hall of Famers). No extra credit for being a Guinea Pig.

Don Mattingly - No
He was all peak and his peak was merely great not immortal. He was no Koufak.

Mark McGwire - Yes
An unequivocal yes. It is time to stop punishing him for the sins of a generation.

Jack Morris - No
One great game does not a hall of famer make. Again it is all about context. Morris was a good pitcher on great teams. Blyleven was a great pitcher on mediocre teams.

Dale Murphy - No
No strong opinion

Jesse Orosco - No
Orosco’s case is more for uniqueness then accomplishment.

Dave Parker - No
No strong opinion

Dan Plesac - No
He retired?

Tim Raines - Yes
Everyone agrees that he was Rickey lite. I think the discrepancy occurs on how good we think Rickey actually was. Rickey was one the top 25 hitters or so all time. Thus, Raines can be a fair bit worse, and yet still be an easy choice.

Jim Rice - No
Not even the best candidate amongst 1980’s Red Sox outfielders.

Lee Smith - No
If it wasn’t for saves, he was be long off the ballot. Saves just aren’t that important.

Alan Trammell - No
Close. Can Whitaker and he share a spot? It is highly dependent on what era of player you want to care him against. I’m going to lean no, and save this spot for Larkin.

Greg Vaughn - No
Figures the Vaughns would be on the ballot together.

Mo Vaughn - No
An abject lesson on why Ryan Howard is unlikely to reach the hall.

Matt Williams - No
A legitimately great player, whom had his best season altered by the strike. Peak is a bit short.

Henderson is the only lock, from my perspective. I wouldn’t be surprised if Rice made it, but I’m not really sold on him or any of the others.

The problem here (beyond my distaste for win shares) is that mediocrity has value. I would always rather have a player who had a slightly worse peak, but pitches 1000 more innings of average baseball. If they are equal then yes I’ll take the guy with the better peak, but you can dismiss non-peak performance as irrelevant. I like Jay Jaffe’s approach to this, which is essentially to double count peak.

See I take from those numbers that Morris is clearly the worst of the five. He had the shortest career, the worst ERA+ and Whip, and tied for the worst K/BB ratio. Record is almost entirely dependant upon team situation, so I pay it little heed.

This is an underrated concept. I think if we designated “inner circle” HOFers (Mays, Mathewson, Schmidt, etc.), outer circle HOFers (Ashburn, Kirby Puckett, Rizzuto), close-but no cigar HOFers (Hodges, Mattingly, Trammell), but in maybe two or three further gradations, there would be fewer complaints. Only the inner circle guys would be eligible for certain honors in Cooperstown–statues and the like–and their plaques maybe would be in a separate room, like that.

You could even have specific areas of excellence that would be voted on by several separately qualified bodies of voters: Players of Long-Standing Excellence, Players of Peak Seasons, Players of Superb Character, Players Who Excelled in non-playing contributions, all competing against others in their category, etc. and only those who meet say 5 out of the seven categories get to go in the Inner circle.