Thats why I said “It can be done. Not something I’d try myself” 
I’ve seen people trap a leg during a kick. I have certainly used a punch thrown at me to trap an arm for a hold, break or throw of my own. Its just not something I would try with a kick…but thats just me. I’m more a “kick em in the nuts” kind of guy myself…less danger to my fragile hide that way. 
-XT
I’d use the crotch shot for light contact sparring or situations I felt in control of, or if I thought that was all I’d get. However, if someone’s throwing a spinning kick at you, you’re liable to get many more opportunities than one.
After stepping in and standing there @ the guy’s back, I’d let my imagination run. There’re so many options of how to disable somone when you’re behind them and they’re not looking.
Grr, I am very obviously not saying that one doesn’t have many opportunities to hit somebody in the back, kick em in the crotch, or hit, unbalance or whatever. I agree, a kick isn’t the best thing, If you read my post you can see that I am not saying it is. I only said this:
Clearly only arguing the point that 'catching" somebody doing a full spinning kick, especially those that are flying through the air via capoeira style tricks, is not a feasable method of doing so, that you will no doubt break a wrist or hand attempting it.
Now that I have that cleared up I am sure more people will no doubt come along and read other things in my posts that I am not saying.
Epimetheus, its very possible to catch someones leg during a kick…and once you did that, it shouldn’t be too hard to break their foot. Its ALSO possible to catch a baseball bat in mid swing, though I wouldn’t recommend it. But if you are fast enough and your timing is good enough, its do-able. I’ve actually seen demonstrations of this at various martial arts tournies I’ve been too. I once saw a guy catch a sword blade in his hands that was coming down to split his head. Of course, it was a demonstration, but it was still a pretty impressive display of speed and timing…I was impressed anyway.
Not all martial arts is force on force. That means, if you are going to catch someones leg/foot as they are kicking at you, you don’t HAVE to do it directly…you can do it obliquely, if you understand what I’m getting at. Think of it this way…if I swing a bat at your head, you could put your arm directly in the way, and take the blow perpendicularly on your arm…force on force. It would work, you’d block the bat, but it would hurt like hell. Or, you could deflect the bat to the side by, among other things, simply tilting your arm at an angle and having the blow travel down the length of your arm, making the impact much less.
For myself, all I was trying to say re: your comment was that I wouldn’t try and trap a leg/foot of someone trying to kick me in the head…I would do something else. I COULD trap a leg if I put my mind too it, but to me the risk wouldn’t be worth it, and I think I have techniques that for me are better in that situation. Also, obviously different styles emphasize different things. Maybe in DeaganTheWolf’s style they emphasize catching someones foot/leg during a kick, and practice at it. If you practice enough at something, you get good at it.
Hope that clears up my own statements with reguards to your own. Wasn’t a bust on you (either before or now), just an observation on my part.
-XT
Of course it was a ‘demonstration’.
This kind of thing is only ever a demonstration, in real life you would be killed attempting to do this. It’s not a matter of skill,. it’s a matter of commons sense and the laws of physics. I hope you understand that.
And I agree with you on everythign else you said after that
Just a minor observation. I sparred against many folks who had trained for a while in various striking arts and had attained some ability, but were not very adept at finishing their strikes. Against such opponents, you CAN intercept an arm or leg. But I would generally consider avoidance a preferable option. Against an unfamiliar opponent, I cannot imagine assuming I was going to catch his strikes.
Certainly, “expert” strikers do not leave their hand or foot out there, and you would not want to intercept/destroy a good thai kick.
There are plenty of fine MAs out there. I think the instructor/school are so important, that it is very hard to generalize across styles. For example, I know one guy rather well who has considerable ability and a big rep in a generally respected “style.” Many folks seek him out to train with, without knowing that he is a major substance abuser who has stolen from and dicked over countless “friends” and associates.
I’m not sure why anyone would study only one art. Sure, you can choose one as your main art. And you can gain a lot by progressing in a single system. But why not check out what else is out there, and what you can learn from others? I would recommend that every martial artist train at least some combination of striking and grappling. Probably some weapons as well. I also think any effective MA training requires significant “live” exercises including sparring, instead of limiting itself to forms.
Dunno about a spin kick but I’ve had someone try to sissor kick me in soccer. I side kicked them (and the ball). I got both targets. If you can plant yourself you can excert all your strength and most of your mass. Just messing with the karate folks at soccer practice I found that the spinning kick meant they took their eye off me. I was able to side step the event and tag them pretty easily. Obviously they weren’t masters at their sport but I was just using common sense. To me, a spinning kick has such an obvious wind up. It’s like drawing your arm back in a boxing match.
The most effective kick I’ve seen demostrated was the double kick in karate. You can execute it quickly and back off. My friends always used it as an “attack and retreat” manuever.
Interestingly enough, a group of Chinese MA masters got together and founded an academy that features a curriculum with parts of several different styles, wrestling etc. It’s called the Chin Wu school.
Actually, that sounds like a great idea. Has this been exported as a discipline?
Seems to me the question is open for way too much interpretation.
The best martial art for women?
The best martial art for competition?
The best martial art for show?
The best martial art for self-defense?
The best martial art for offense?
The best martial art for exercise?
IMO, there are very different answers for many of these questions. And if you happen to be Bruce Lee, the answer is always Jeet Kun Do.
Yes, there is always somebody that is good enough to catch a baseball traveling 100 mph with their fingertips or has the ability to catch a baseball swung by somebody with nearly as much power as a pro-baseball player, but these people are the exception, and are rare.
As for the comment about the sword: These people train to catch a sword traveling at a particular speed, a particular direction, at a set time. It is impressive, but given a real life situation, they would not have the ability to do this. That is hollywood.
Sure, some people are very good, and can sidestep a spinning kick from a well practiced artist, but that is also due to quite a bit of skill as well. Those kicks come fast, and you have to be able to tell they are comming, which takes experience. This does not detract from practical applications of a MA. Unless you routinely get mugged by Black belts.
Generally those people that claim, quite arrogantly, that they would just catch a persons fist, foot, or knee are often untrained and think that because they see it on TV, they can do it as well. Do I think Daegan can do this? Perhaps he is skilled enough, and good for him, however, the way he states it should come with the disclaimer that he is trained to do so, and most people shouldn’t even attempt it.
Ghanima has it head on. Too many interpretations, and many martial artists never seem to realize that. The best martial art for competition would be what they do in the UFC. No holds barred, all out fight. People get seriously hurt, and things happen fast. You don’t see them kicking. They go for effiecency.
I think peoples opinions on what they can or cannot do with martial arts is too heavily influenced by what they see on TV, or at shows. Or they figure that if the best can do it, they too can do it. Never mind that they have superb genetics, train constantly, eat strict diets and are extremely talented.
Epimetheus
You can do it by grabbing ankle after it has passed the midpoint of the strike. Once you have it you bring your other hand up to the toe of the foot and twist. It takes timing and coordination but it’s surprisingly easy. Further, my style releys heavily on reactive fighting; ie: drawing your oppnent in to you by catching or blocking an attack.
Deagan: I know how it is possibly done, but I disagree that it is easy. For one it takes great care in timing and you can easily miss, or if the guy is spinning with enough force, throw you off balance or (possibly) dislocate your shoulder. Not to mention the speed in which you would have move your arm…
Kicks aren’t slow. At least not the ones I have had thrown at me. Perhaps I am just slow compared to all you reflexive giants.
Well it’s not a technique i’d use in a competition sparring situation. Mostly it’s great against weekend warriors and the like. The catch and break technique is FAR more effective with punches and grabs. I’ve employed it VERY effectively in barfights. I ought to add that it’s not a first choice option either. I was simply trying to illustrate that a suitibly skilled MA need not rely on fancy and risky maneuvers that leave one open to attack.
I agree. 
They are very effecting against punches and grabs, and most kicks too.
From Epimetheus
Of course old boy…thats why I said it was a ‘demonstration’. I never implied it was an actual combat technique. It WAS impressive to watch, but I’m sure even the guy that did it would say he’d never try such a thing against a guy with a live blade that was really trying to kill him with it.
My point was, that if you train hard enough at something, you can do some impressive things. I agree that many peoples perceptions are based on what they see in the movies. You get that even with folks that train in the martial arts, if they only spar or work the forms.
As to the rest…well, thats why I said I wouldn’t try and do it.
-XT
Well, not exactly as a discipline per se. There is is a core curriculum. After the core curriculum, (four to five years), the students begin in-depth study. Similar to, but pre-dating, JKD there’s a “whatever works” spirit of practicality to the Jing Wu academy. It provides a place for students and instructors of many different “styles” to get together and strengthen their arts.
But, yes, it has been exported. There’re even a number of teachers here in North America who were instructors in one or more of the Chin Woo schools in China.
Due to the vagaries of Chinese dialects and transliteration, there’re a number of ways that it is spelled- Chin Wu/ Woo, Jin Woo/Wu, Jing Wu/Woo, etc. This’s also true of the names of individuals as well. Certainly makes googling a bitch.
Be forewarned that the quality of info available on the web is of varying degrees. It’s best to find one of those who’ve actually taught there if you want the most reliable info. I don’t read Chinese. There’re probably some more info out there in Chinese.
Here’s a bit about the history of it’s founding:
Fans of Bruce Lee movies’re undoubtedly familiar w/ this story line.
Here’s a bit about the MA in the modern history of China:
Huo Yuan-Chia’s, (or Fo Yan Ji’s, or a number of other spellings), art, mi tsung, (or my jong/ myjhong/ mizhong, mizong etc.) has several different branches.
Here’s one blurb from sfsu.edu
Yen Chien, (or Yen Ching, or, or, or), is a character from the famous Chinese classic tales the Outlaws of the Marsh, sometimes called Tales from the Water Margin about 108 outlaws, who were loyal to the emperor but at dire odds with corrupt officials, (kind of like Robin Hood, Richard, John and the sheriff).
Mi Tsung is dated back as far as the Song dynasty, (10th thru 13th cent).
The different families of My Jhong are, in part, a result of the pragmatic approach to martial study, the “whatever works philosophy.”
Here’re some pre digested googles for mi tsung:
mi tsung
my jong
mizong
mizhong
my jhong
Here’s some sites for Chin Wu
There’re instructors of various families of My Jhong in the US as well. One of them, Lee Kwong Ming, (Johnny Lee), was an instructor at the Chin Wu academy and is featured in the Martial Arts encyclopedia. Adam Hsu is another mizhong quan instructor who teaches in the US, (sometimes). There are a number of highly qualified instructors that I have not listed. This is not meant as any sort of a comment on them or their sincerity.
One of Johhny Lee’s instructors:
Yep Ye Ting
Adam Hsu
Adam Hsu lineages
I’m not trying to make the case that any of this/these represent the best martial art. I’m just documenting some people’s sincere efforts toward improving their wu shu.
—Simon
And yes, as you’ve most certainly guessed by now, I’ve studied a little under Master Lee Kwong Ming
Nit pick:
The UFC does inded have rules and forbids certain techniques.
nit pick #2:
Actually they do kick. Gracies often lead in with a sliding kick, (the kick pulls the guy forward).
IMHO, as a rule of thumb, kicks should stay below the waist.
SimonX: nice post!
Yeah, I am not too familiar with the rules of UFC, though they do seem to be minimal. I am sure they do have quite a few, most of which no doubt keep the deaths and injuries minimal. I just happen to not know too many of them. (I have probably only watched 15-20 fights, they are hard to get ahold of, and I am too poor to do pay-per-view)
They do indeed kick. I meant to say that you don’t see them doing spinning kicks or many high kicks. I agree with your rule of thumb.
Mine, of course, but I’m biased.
Assumptions I will make:
The problem with this debate is that the waters of modern martial arts are too muddied. Instructors vary widely within the same style. Most styles are pretty much teaching blended arts. I know several TKD schools that are now teaching basic grappling! :eek: As an aside, there is a lot of grapples and throws hidden in kata with a Korean origin so this shouldn’t be as surprising as it probably is. Picking a style that would over all others is pretty impossible now, although certainly any style which has a blend of techniques is going to have an advantage. Pure grappling is great, until you get stuck in a punch/kick fight, and striking is great until your opponent grapples.
So, lets take a little trip through time. Using historical combatants who would win. Lets go back to 1680 AD, a kind of golden age for ancient martial arts. We can safely ignore most peasant arts. Contrary to popular belief, they were not designed to allow peasants to win against the warrior classes, they were designed for village defense against bandits and raiders. So that leaves us with the warrior class arts.
So from China we have the Shaolin. Although there were lots of styles of kung fu or other chinese arts, they were largely peasant class. The Shaolin were called warrior monks for a reason. They fought in wars so I’m counting them as warrior class.
From Japan, we have the samurai and ninja. The samurai were primarily interested the bow and the sword, but for empty handed fighting they used jujutsu. The ninja obviously used ninjitsu.
From Korea, I’m going to take the Hwrang-Do. Okay, the sociey had died out about 1400 AD, but close enough.
Vietnam. Only one to pick from for this era. Vo Thuat.
Philippines/Indonesia Kali/Silat.
Thailand. Only one to pick from for this era. Krabi Krabong.
Africa. Only one to pick from for this era. Capoeira.
India. Only one to pick from for this era. Kalaripayit.
Russia. Only one to pick from for this era. Sambo.
So I determined a random number for each so I can do some pairings. So the final list in order:
Capoeria vs Kali. Kali wins. Capoeria was included to be fair to other martial arts that originated in that era in other places in the word, but really Capeoria is a peasant art. It is designed to be used when at a severe disadvantage and does what it does well. Gives a last ditch hope to fight; however, it simply not able to overcome it self inflicted handicaps.
Shaolin vs Kalaripayit. Shaolin wins. This is a good solid matchup. However, Kalaripayit focuses on pressure points strikes and as such loses in the long run against the direct, constant pressure applied by Shaolin.
Jujutsu vs Krabi Krabong. Krabi Krabong wins. The samurai would rather carve up his enemes. Jujutsu is of last resort or when his sword isn’t handy. Plus, there are tactical problems for jujutsu vs krabi. If the samurai can get a lock he wins, but how often is he going to be able to do that against a similarly skilled opponent? Unable to lock it up on a consistent basis, the samurai loses statistically in the long run.
Vo Thuat vs Ninjitsu. Vo Thuat wins. Forced kicking and screaming into a standup fight the ninja loses. I know the ninja weren’t helpless when it comes to fighting, far from it, but a style dedicated to that kind of fight vs one that isn’t results in a loss for ninjitsu.
Hwrang-Do vs Sambo. Hwrang-Do wins. Hwrang-Do is a complete system, Sambo is not. Statistically, Hwrang-Do will win out.
ROUND 2
Determined bye at random… Vo Thuat.
Kali vs Shaolin Kung Fu. Shaolin Kung Fu wins barely. A very good matchup. However, alot of Kali training is for weapons so this puts it at an immediate disadvantage. Other than that the styles are very evenly matched. Both used advanced concepts coupled with effective technique. In a long drawn out match the slight disadvantage.
Krabi Krabong vs Hwrang-Do. Hwrang-Do wins. Ultra-aggressive Hwarng-Do overwhelms Krabong while it tries to figure out how to use its control elements. It is a good fight, since Krabong is not defensive but has a good spread. But it is defensive enough to lose out in the end.
ROUND 3 (Round Robin to be fair)
Shaolin and Hwrang-Do defeat Vo Thuat which is far to defensive in nature to survive.
ROUND 4 (The Final)
Shaolin Warrior Monk vs Hwrang-Do warrior. An excellent match. Both styles are complete and effective. It really could come down to coin toss. Shaolin is more complete, and in philosophy is more advanced. Hwrang-Do is complete but doesn’t try to control the fight as much, but is more aggressive. If it were average fighter for each, I think Hwrang-Do would win; however, since this is a fight of the accomplished I think the advanced tactics of Shaolin prevail.
So the “best” martial art is clearly Shaolin Kung Fu. QED.
Yes, this should be taken pretty tongue-in-cheek.