Oh, absolutely. There might be a glimmer of understanding just before the blackout, but other than that they’re completely oblivious.
They’re not oblivious to constricting living conditions, or constant pain when they’re being raised or whatever though, so battery farming is bad in that regards and if I had a real choice in the matter I would avoid meat obtained that way.
But awareness of their own mortality, and why they’re being raised ? Please. That’s industrial grade anthropomorphizing, plain and simple. And even humans seem oblivious to their impending demise most of the time
Millions of years of evolution of the survival instinct. The ones that don’t flee don’t survive long enough to reproduce. The descendants of those that do, flee instinctively without a need for conscious understanding of death.
Understood, but don’t you think these animals, regardless of what they’re “thinking,” experience mental stress associated with the pursuit of a predator? Chickens in a slaughterhouse may not have an understanding of death, or that they’re going to die imminently, but surely they experience mental stress due to the constant proximity of humans (a potential–and actual–predator) which, if sustained, could be akin to torture.
Sure they’re going to be less stressed if they have room to move around and feel safe. That’s a good thing. The problem is that free range farming costs money.
Most people just want cheap meat. A balance has to be struck. I would agree with the argument that the current situation of massive farms of overcrowded animals is not a good balance. Unfortunately many people feel that $1.99/lb. chicken is a god given right and will not accept higher prices. As long as this market exists someone will supply it.
You could take the position that people need to be made to understand the reality of the situation. I suspect that the people you would seek to reeducate will say that in fact we need to understand the reality of trying to feed a family on a budget.
And then, what’s your solution ? Release them all into the wilds, where they’ll only experience acute mental stress one short, sharp time ? Or, if they’re very lucky a number of time they skirt very close to death before finally getting gored by some alley cat who sure as shit won’t take care not to drag their death on for too long ?
Chickens are born and evolved to freak the fuck out at the slightest disturbance. The only dichotomy here is between these disturbances being harmless for most of their lives, or each of them involving maiming, clawing and actual pain. Do you really suspect a chicken’s life would be vastly improved if we didn’t farm it ?
Now, again, there’s an actual problem with battery poultry farming where they’re raised ten thousand chicks to a square meter, no beak, no air, no roaming room etc… That is accepted and that’s the moral price you pay for cheap KFC.
But that’s exactly how far the guilt goes, as far as I’m concerned. There is absolutely zero moral issues with free range chicken.
Not going to get into the argument one side or the other, but pointing out some things:
Economically, it is good in the long run to treat the animals well before slaughter. Good food, good health, less stress, all improve feed conversion and make for a better product. Not to mention, a fraction of those animals will become breeders, and healthy breeders help improve the next generation.
For many industries, animal science researches have found the minimum effective spaces and how many animals they accomodate. Therefore, it is known when a place may suffer from overcrowding, and overcrowding, on the long run, is bad (even economically).
Pregnant crates, as those shown in the video, are already illegal in some states.
You’re making the assumption that I eat meat raised and processed traditonally.
I don’t.
I can honestly say I know where every piece of meat I eat comes from and how it was raised and how and where it died.
I’ll be eviscerating about 350 chickens this week.
The time lapse from when the birds are taken from the pasture to when they’re stacked up in the drain refrigerator is normally about 4 1/2 hours.
If one jumps out of the crate in the processing building, it won’t be running for the door.
Chances are, it’ll look around and then start cleaning him/herself. The birds are clueless about what’s happening.
I appreciate your concern for meat animals and poultry but when you post comments like that you’re really anthropomorphizing. Life in the wild isn’t a rerun of ‘Bambi’ and life on a well managed pasture based farm isn’t Auschwitz.
Well, so is obesity and diabetes now, too. Local, humane meat may be a hippie’s pipe dream, but quality over quantity in every ingredient would be a nice cultural shift with real impact.
“Food, Inc.” is still available on Netflix Instant for anyone interested. While many think Michael Pollan is a douche, and he is interviewed heavily in this documentary, he raises very valid points. Once I watched this, I did some additional self-educating, other documentaries and a couple of books. All of it combined, and me taking information I felt was valid and not propaganda or self-aggrandizing on the parts of movie-makers, writers, or interviewees, helped me make the decision to never support factory animal farming again.
“The Omnivore’s Dilemma” was an interesting read, and actually helped change my mind about non-sport hunting. Temple Grandin’s books about her slaughterhouse and farm designs are also really interesting. She’s an interesting character herself, and her perspectives are certainly unique. If nothing else, there’s the movie about her, as well, for non-readers (though I expect Dopers to be reading types).
The problem with factory farming isn’t just how the animals are treated, there’s certainly a humanitarian aspect in regards to immigrant workers, and an environmental aspect in regards to feedlot E. coli runoff. Fruit and vegetable factory farming is also a problem for immigrant/migrant worker issues and environmental issues with overuse of fertilizer and pesticides, similar in a way to meat factory farming overusing antibiotics and growth hormone.
Am I perfect in my vegetarianism and avoidance of factory farming? Of course not. I have cats that eat canned cat food from Hill’s. So I certainly still use plenty of things that come from huge conglomerate business. I still buy non-recycled paper products and have commercial meat-eating animals. I think a small difference is that I’m perfectly aware of what products I’m consuming and what impact they have on the planet and other people. Many times, it’s not so good, but it’s a conscious choice. I’d rather be choosing conscientiously, with awareness of what I’m toting home with me, than go about in ignorance any more.
Then those people either need to (a) spend the extra money for protein that was produced in a safe and humane way or (b) be honest with themselves that their hobby is important enough to them to justify the abuse of animals. For most people, this shit is easy to stomach only because they like to pretend it isn’t happening, or they never bothered to find out.
No, he’s just one of those fun people who thinks that animals are just like people, only cuter. He’s saying it doesn’t matter how humanely you raise and slaughter them, so long as you’re still eating them.
I am not going to look at the video in the OP. Raising and killing animals so we can eat them isn’t a pretty process any way you do it.
Something like 100 million hogs are slaughtered per year in the USA. How humane can that be? That’s around one hog for every three people or, one could say, one hog feeds three people for a year. This handy PDF gives some interesting consumption figures. Meat Production
The point of the process is to feed people as cheaply as possible, not to give the animals happy lives, so the industry tries to do that task as efficiently as possible. It is an industry. A few pennies per pound can make the difference between a successful hog raising venture and a failure.
For myself and my family, we try to eat meat less often, buy larger potions (whole chickens for example) and use all that we buy. In the end though, we are buying meat at the grocery store and looking for the lowest price. The meat at the local farmer’s market, where they claim the be humane, is often 2- 5 times as expensive as grocery store meat.
So you’re in favor of maximizing profits, no matter what the costs, especially when the costs aren’t born by the people making the money? Let me know how that works out for you.
This is why I pray to a god I don’t believe exists that somehow, some day, a bigger, stronger, more intelligent species decides they must consume humans to survive, even though this species has an equally effective, though less tasty, alternative. I also pray that it will be at least as brutal as what you’d see in the OP’s video, if you chose to watch it. I will happily give my life, finishing it out in brutal, tortuous conditions, so that you may personally discover the other consequences of this efficient process.
Your analogy is a piece of shit. The point is not that it’s okay to eat anything we’re smarter than, at all; the point is that it’s okay to eat animals that aren’t smart enough to have a sense of self-awareness.
Chickens, cows, turkeys, sheep, deer, etc.: these are all dumb fucking animals.
Make an argument against eating things like primates, dolphins, octopodes, etc., and I’ll agree with you.
Otherwise, by your logic, it’s just as “evil” for animals to eat plants as it is for us to eat animals.
Well, these beings I’m talking about, they are so super intelligent, their sense of self-awareness so profoundly acute, that they judge human beings not to be smart enough to have a sense of self-awareness. Of course we know that isn’t true, but they don’t. Humans are dumb fucking animals, they say.
I am not sure how you got here from what I said and I don’t know who you think is bearing costs and not making profits. The hogs? The fact is that the meat industry tries to maximize profits for themselves while providing a product most people want. That is the reason farmers raise and slaughter hogs. Nobody is asking if I am in favor of maximizing profits, they don’t need my approval. You have a better way, a way that creates and slaughters 100 million hogs a year humanely and at a price that people can afford, I would love to hear it.
So, because I pointed out how profit drives the meat industry, you would happily give your life so I can be slaughtered like a hog by some other species? Did I read that right? Nice. One thing we can be sure of, they will do it as efficiently as they can get away with. Dreaming about a happy world where shiftless runs free won’t help me one bit when the demand for shiftless bacon goes up.
Humane farming is based upon a symbiotic relationship with very specific categories of domestic animals/poultry. Over hundreds of years, animals have been carefully bred to optimize the production of the meats we eat as well and eggs and dairy products. In turn, the animals receives full health care, a safe and comfortable place to live and ample feed.
When done properly, “brutal, tortuous” conditions simply don’t exist.
One of the problems today with current factory farming practices is that the animals have been reduced to products with no consideration for the fact that they are sentient beings.
Have you ever actually observed natural predation?
A hawk swoops down on a chicken, slams its claws into the bird’s back and then proceeds to eviscerate it. While the chicken is still alive. Not pretty.
The coyote chases the rabbit down and then rips off its legs or head or breaks its back.
Also not especially pretty.
As I said earlier, you have a distinctly Disney view of how predators survive in the wild. It ain’t the way it works, Jack.
You are astoundly ignorant about the cost of cheap meat.
That .89 chicken you buy at the store has hidden costs that you never see.
Even if you don’t give a flying fuck about the actual quality of life of the chicken or pig or cow, you should gave a damn about the cost to the environment and the humans that produce and process it.
Not to mention your health and the health of your family.
