The Big Meat Industry caught on video abusing pigs

Read that again:

Of course I won’t blink if you say that’s hyperbole, but you cannot possibly claim that it’s not self-righteous, and you are very confused if you think that it was posted in response to a defense of the sort of abuse which spawned this OP, because there just simply isn’t one.

Your posture depends on the assumption that omnivores are necessarily tolerant of horrific abuses of animals, that the current industry should or can be replaced with something radically different, and that boycotting supermarket chicken is the only ethical step to take if you don’t accept horrific abuse.

Pointing out that the scale of the need and simple economics dictate that it is not possible for the entire consumer supply to be filled with animals raised in pastoral conditions, lovingly groomed, given a surplus of space, and given affectionate touches from the time they are born until they are ready for slaughter. It is an industry and industry demands efficiency. We will always have factory farming, unless our numbers are thinned to a trace by some timely plague. This is (or at least should be, if you look around a little bit) an overwhelmingly uncontroversial position.

In no way does this apologize for or accept excessive inhumanity. To say, “There is a practical requirement for battery hens” does not mean that the speaker is peachy about hens being crammed into such small confines that they grow into chicken wire and get ripped apart when their removed from the cage, or kept in pens that allow waste from animals penned in tiers above them to rain directly down on them, or suffer an unacceptably high rate of disease or injury. It’s just a practical observation.

People who are blase about intolerable abuse are rare creatures, and it’s just silly to pretend otherwise. As with any industry, there are standards, oversight to enforce standards, and unethical people who ignore standards. A rational person’s emphasis is going to be on questions like “Are our standards high enough?” “Is there enough oversight?” and “What can I, as a consumer, do to mitigate the general situation?” When there are abuses, it does not make sense to just pretend that the need isn’t there, to project the abuses onto the entire industry, or to advocate for the most extreme reaction possible.

When you learn that some sneakers are made in sweatshops by children in unsafe conditions, you don’t immediately start advocating a barefoot lifestyle to remedy that situation. Rogue undertakers leaving unrefrigerated bodies stacked up for weeks and being sloppy about who gets buried where? Unless you opt for a viking burial, you must be okay with that, right? Public pool mismanaged to the point that people blithely swim in one with a corpse on the bottom for a couple days? Shut 'em all down and go to the lake!

When someone says something like “I have a family to feed, and the convenience and economy of supermarket meat is important to me, but to improve things I try to buy whole chickens rather than breasts and eat less meat than has become common - for example serving pork in the context of a stir fry where it is a small component, rather than putting a big thick chop on everyone’s plate with mashed potatoes and some token green beans,” then that person has taken practical and productive position and when you respond with something like “I wish you’d get eaten by something bigger so you might learn to properly empathize with your dinner,” you aren’t being terribly persuasive, because it becomes very clear that you are arguing from a position so at odds with practical reality you can be dismissed without a second thought.

:Applause: Bravo. I second your post! Someone had to come along and say that, that eloquently!

I think I am in love with Larry Mudd.

Leaving aside the horrible way you mangled English morphosyntax in this sentence, yes, you were both retarded and self-righteous. You were, in fact, retardedly self-righteous. Oh, and condescending. So, all of that stuff.

Seriously, dude, you’re not doing the side any favors. Shut the fuck up before you make the rest of us look so bad that everyone we’re trying to politely convince keeps eating CAFO meat forever out of sheer spite.

Mmmm … spitebacon …

Would not go see that band.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in this country who don’t have the time, space, or resources to ‘work the bird’, even if they do know how to cook.

Quoted for Truth.

I really get the feeling that a some people on the SDMB do not realize that there a good proportion of the USA works 12-15 hours a day. Couple that with 2-3 hours of commuting time, no real daycare options, plus the fact that they’re being paid close to minimum wage. The result is that this idea of spending hours at farmers markets to buy free range chickens we can take home to “work the bird”, along with locally grown produce we can all obviously afford so we can make nutritious home made meals in order to stand up against the CAFO evil - is a fucking dream.

In the defense of some farmer’s markets, I want to point out that some accept WIC or whatever the current “food stamps” program is right now. Some even have programs that match the allowance, so that, for every $1 that came from the “food stamps”, it is matched by $1 by the other private program. This greatly increases the buying capacity, and is a way to attract lower income people to the market.

That said, it is not a well known program, it is not everywhere, and it doesn’t have that many funds (it depends on private donations).

This thread would have been a lot more amusing if it had been titled “The Big Meat Industry caught on video abusing their meat”.

OK -THAT’S AWESOME!
Do you have any info? Is this a WIC approved program or is it sponsored by the farmers? I would LOVE to go to our local farmers market and distribute this info.

I don’t participate of the program, and heck, I don’t even support the local market*, but here is more information about it.

*I live by myself, so I tend not to buy a lot of fresh produce (frozen and canned are not bad).

At the risk of sounding repetitious, I am very aware of the problems and I do not have the answers.
That doesn’t change any of the facts about CAFO meat.

I do tend to be less sympathetic when the primary argument against seeking a healthier alternative is ease and convenience.
It doesn’t take hours to shop a farmers market and it’s pretty easy to access a recipe on the web and throw a chicken in the crockpot.
I can also assure you that none of the alternative farmers I know are making a bundle selling at the market.
In Texas, the drought is killing many of the produce farmers.
There are at least two marriages on the rocks right now at my market because times are really really tough.

My market accepts WIC and if you need any other info on the program, I’d be happy contact the market director for you.
I also know some of the farmers offer workshares-you help at the booth for 5 hours on a Saturday morning and you walk away with a ton of fresh produce.
I realize that may not be helpful if you’re working two jobs and have no time but they also employ teenagers.
I did for several years.
Yeah, he had to get up very early on a Saurday to ride the bus down to the market but so what?
He made a little pocket money, went home with a big fat chicken and either got deep discounts or free produce from the other farmers at the end of market.

In one of the posts just above is an utterly unmistakable truth: “Trying to persuade the general population to give up meat altogether is a fool’s errand.”

I know I’m not going to stop the rain by complaining. I’ll be the first and last to admit I’ve been a petulant ass (the madness of the screaming pigs!). I’m not afraid to admit I’ve been given a bit of an education, and I’m glad of it and better for it. Accordingly, I was STFUing, ignoring even the subsequent “I want to have your baby” ego-stroke posts. The careful observer perhaps recognized this. Paradoxically, the only thing that brought me out of my STFU state was your extraneous post telling me to STFU. (Irony #1). “Hey, you, continue doing what you’re doing. Yeah, that’s what I thought.” I understand the human need/desire to pile-on, to humiliate to the point of feebleness, so I don’t fault you much. But given you did make your post, I felt obligated to make this public service announcement.

[QUOTE=Shot From Guns]
Leaving aside the horrible way you mangled English morphosyntax in this sentence…
[/QUOTE]

Except you didn’t leave it aside. (Irony #2) Heaven knows I’m no English professor and, like most of us, I can tolerate, even appreciate, a correction. My sentences, considered in the most favorable light, are usually coarse at best. No shame or pride there. My sentences certainly aren’t perfect, or even scholarly; but I believe most of my sentences are pretty decent and understandable. If I’m not proofreading a doctoral thesis or a Supreme Court brief, I’ll usually overlook statements like “I went to they’re house,” recognizing it as a simple homonym substitute. I still understand what their (heh) saying and don’t feel a need to correct them because the meaning is clear despite the [sic]. I feel this is reasonable in the context of message board posting. I don’t care if you’re a pedant, if humiliation is your goal, or if you have a genuine interest in improving my grammar, I’ll be a better person for the correction; but don’t do it then tell me you’re not doing it. Surely the way to “leave something aside” is not to not leave it aside.

[FORRESTGUMP]I’m not a smart man, but I know what irony is.[/FORRESTGUMP]

You have two in a very small post.

Oh, Mince - since you’ve come back, I would just like to apologize for my bluntness above and try to explain myself a tiny bit. (It’s easy to be harsh with people who remind you of your own past behaviour that you’ve come to be embarrassed by.)

I still respect the impulse that attracts people to vegetarianism with the aim of not being responsible for the suffering of animals, and it’s hard to feel fine about smacking someone down for being an idealist.

Even if you are completely circumspect and reasonable, you can expect to take a certain amount of crap just for choosing to be vegetarian. The first time I was ever pitted here, it was pretty much for that. The problem is that you meet a lot of initial resistance from people whose only experience with vegetarianism is from the sort of people who tend to be the loudest about it: sanctimonious, ignorant jerks. Even other vegetarians hate these people.

For my part, I was persuaded that the right thing to do was go strict vegetarian, and I stuck with it for a decade before being forced to acknowledge that it just wasn’t practical for me, because even as a single person with what most people would consider a luxurious amount of free time, i was not possible to maintain a healthy balanced diet without including meat. I have come to accept many counter-arguments I’d heard about how natural it is for humans to eat meat, and indeed I have been persuaded that meat-eating is a fundamental part of our genetic heritage - because we certainly could never have hoped to enjoy the big brains that make all the rest of it possible without convenient and nutritionally diverse ambulatory food sources. You can have a complete diet that’s meat free, but the associated costs are very high, and not really a practical option for people with limited time available to them, and for most people it’s going to be a non-starter.

That said, if it’s practical for you - more power to you! And if you can persuade more people to go veg (and it works for them,) that’s also all to the good. We are in agreement that the high demand for meat is unsustainable and steps really do need to be taken to mitigate that.

There are a couple of points I’d like to put across to you, but I have a hard time to find words that won’t come across as condescending and dickish- I’m going to try anyway.

A lot of people arrive at vegetarianism through emotion, and there’s nothing wrong with that. But keep in mind that most people aren’t going to have a parallel emotion response to the idea of eating a sentient creature. It’s a common fallacy amongst new vegetarians to believe that eschewing meat would be natural, if people only took a good look at where it came from before it arrived on our plates. This is really not so, or the human race wouldn’t be here at all. Most people are just fine with eating animals, because that’s who we are. The irony is that the more insulated you are from the the practical reality of raising and slaughtering livestock, the easier is it to believe that an intimate knowledge of it would persuade people that they ought not to eat meat.

An emotion appeal may sway some people - especially if they are people you already share many affinities with. It is not likely to persuade people who are looking at the situation rationally, though.

You should also (if you’ll please excuse my presumption in offering advice) avoid the sort of fallacy of composition that you find in the title of this thread, and remember that the vast majority of people will balk at the sort of egregious abuses linked in the OP, even if they consider meat-eating a practical necessity. It is insulting to imply otherwise, and if you do, people are liable to shut you out if you do.

You will find that most people agree that animals should not suffer abuse, and are eager to take whatever steps they might be able to in order to avoid that. I guess what I am trying to say is that you shouldn’t imply that people have poor ethics for choosing to eat meat, or even for choosing to eat shrink-wrapped supermarket meat, because it’s not feasible for everyone to adopt a vegetarian diet, and it’s not even possible for everyone to eat free-range or pastured meat. It’s just not going to scale up, so it doesn’t begin to make sense to rag on people for these choices.

I dunno, this post is already too long and I don’t think I’m getting close to putting my point across, so I’m going to stop trying to fully articulate it it and condense it as much as I can: I think your motivations are good, and have stood in exactly the same spot you have. I agree that cruelty is unacceptable. While I am convinced that people will necessarily continue to eat other animals if the species is to continue, I think that the demand for meat (in North America, at least) has gone beyond practical necessity and must be reduced.

I think if we (and people like us) are able to narrow the gap between our POV’s, it will serve the common good. Toward that end, *try not to alienate meat-eaters who may not have thought beyond, “If it tastes good, I’m going to eat as much of it as I can.”

Apologies for length and possible incoherence, as my pregnant wife wasn’t able to offer much help in disposing of the bottle of wine that I’ve reached the end of, and is impatient for me to tear myself away from my Nerdy Nerd Board for Nerds… but the even-more-condensed version of the above is this: “I think you’re okay, and I hope we’re still good.”

Wife was shopping and found chicken breasts for $.79/pound. Me, I’m a thigh man and find modern breasts to be chewy tofu, but I will make the best of them. Still, I will wonder where the thighs went.

And $.79/lb is crazy cheap for most anything. I’m not clear how it happens, but my low-income family has to eat.

Of course. I’m embarrassed you should apologize. You do not owe me that courtesy.

I really appreciate your reasoned and articulate approach to the issue, Larry Mudd.

I will confess that I did not watch the video that began this debate-namely because I am the last living American still on dial-up right now.
However, I am very aware of industrial meat pratices. It’s hard for me not to become a preachy annoying zealot on the issue. I’m also very aware that I’m fortunate to have access to healthy humanely raised meat but others may not have that option right now.

I was thinking about your hyperbolic example, Mince while I was swilling wine last night.
Athough this make come across as somewhat sanctimonious, I believe that I have a covenant with the animals I eat.
I promise them a comfortable and natural existence and as quick and painless death as possible. In return, they provide me with sustance and I am deeply grateful.
If your superior race could guarantee that I would spend my life in pleasant surroundings, supply me with good food and clean water and full medical coverage and ensure that my death would take no more than 1-2 minutes, I might agree to be the next meal. :stuck_out_tongue:
I’ve watched two people die lingering miserable excruciating deaths and I want no part of that.

I think the big disconnect began when the public lost touch with how their meat was produced.
Just about everyone I know over the age of 50 either grew up on a farm or visited
relatives that lived on one at some time.
Now I suspect that most consumers have no contact with meat other than the shrinkwrapped variety they buy in the store.
The people that work in the CAFO 's aren’t necessarily brutal assholes-they’re trapped in a system that treats them as indentured servants.

This is why, when I was a broke college student with no free time, I just didn’t eat meat, period. Again, the plain fact of the matter is, if you are eating CAFO meat, you are saying that you are willing to accept animal abuse and practices that endager everyone by creating environmental and public health hazards and antibiotic-resistant bacteria because you simply enjoy the meat too much to give it up.

Maybe that’s something you’re okay with. I know people who are, and I’m not going to preach at them about it. I wouldn’t be saying shit to you if we weren’t on the subject. But you need to at least be honest with yourself about what you’re doing, because there *are *other options, and they don’t have to be expensive or time-consuming. There is no such thing as being “too poor” or “too busy” to stop eating CAFO meat; if that’s your only reason, then you’re lying to yourself.

You’re failing (and yes, I did read the next sentence).