OK, off-topic and possibly stupid question, but since helicopters can hover, why doesn’t the police helicopter hover to maintain consistent sight on the target vehicle? As it circles around it keeps losing sight of the scene in the trees, rendering the helicopter ineffective as an observation point.
Shows what happens when you try to crossdraw from a jacket pocket. You’d never see ol’ Wild Bill trying that! No, he’d crossdraw from a proper holster. No, wait, he’d crossdraw his pistols that were stuck in his sash. And practice before trying it in a gunfight.
I think it was a plane.
The FBI SAC said it was a plane so perhaps it was not a helicopter. It seems to be rather far off (sound issues?) with a lot of constant focusing.
That sounds entirely plausible but I don’t know anything about drawing from your jacket. The other scenario is suicide by cop. Keep looking like you’re reaching for a gun until they shoot you.
He had the option to freeze with his hands visible on the wheel, or to lower the window, hands out and wait for the cuffs to be put on. Getting out the vehicle was an aggressive move…
Please get this right, they did not have pocket constitutions, they had pocket unicornstitutions.
I just ran across this in the wiki. It is a good read.
Idiots yes, outright terrorists, I’m not certain. But the fact they were heavily armed, made threats (we ain’t gonna start it…), definitely projected an intimidating posture at the refuge, and if reports are to believed in town as well.
I get for some it’s exercising their second amendment rights. There is a flip side of the coin, and for others it’s an asshole in your face with a loaded weapon. That said, not sure an asshole in your face with a loaded weapon counts as “terrorism” but it ain’t a good feeling for sure.
Carrying the mantle of Gandhi and MLK these folks are/were not.
I spoke upthread about lack of perspective. You seriously think that this incident is as bad as someone blowing up or shooting random members of the public in cold blood just to get publicity? Fer Og’s sake. What these guys did was bad enough, it isn’t necessary to twist yourself into knots trying to avoid the conclusion they could have been worse.
It was unstaffed. As I understand it the Bundyites gave no warning they were going to occupy it, they just suddenly did so. Is that not correct?
This is completely implausible. Their pronouncements on the subject of the US Constitution are strong evidence they have never been anywhere near that document.
It was closed that day, but it was an active facility. The armed presence and the threats certainly prevented its staff from returning to work every day since.
Well, then. Don’t I feel silly.
That was an excellent read; thank you for posting it. In fact, it was so good I’m gonna post the link again: Libertarian Fairy Tales: The Bundy Militia’s Revisionist History in Oregon
The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge website also shows that the only reason the Refuge is closed is because of the occupying militia:[
](http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Malheur/Alert/Closure.html)
Their Facebook page shows a notice of closure at 4:02pm on 2 January 2016, followed by a post on 3 January containing the text I quoted above.
So no, your understanding is not correct.
BTW, thanks Peremensoe!
Here’s the Civil War-era law several of them have been charged with: 18 U.S. Code § 372 - Conspiracy to impede or injure officer | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
Glad you enjoyed it. Pacific-Standard is a great site.
Well duh, of course they are not going to go back to the facility once it’s occupied. You guys are so determined not to see the frickin’ wood you have your face pressed against a tree. The issue here is whether the very essence of their operation was to kill and maim to strike terror. Not whether, once they occupied a building while armed, everyone stayed away.
I’m prepared to believe these guys were/are stupid and incompetent. However, I’m not sure I believe they are so stupid and incompetent that they intended their protest to be megadeath but accidentally ended up walking into some unoccupied buildings and then not hurting anyone.
I think it may have been mentioned way upthread, that there was already serious concern about the presence of Bundy et al in the area in December, so the staff of the refuge was given vacation time so that they would not be imperiled in the event that the gang were to take some sort of action. There was no one there when the “militia” moved in because the management of the refuge wanted their people to be safe and not to be involved in any hostagery.
Watching the near hit made me think of a NY Post headline: Suicide-by-Criminal!
The agent should consider himself lucky he wasn’t the other person to die there.
Presuming the agent had been hit by the vehicle, it would have been difficult to convince me that it was intentional by Finicum, as he swerved to avoid colliding with the vehicle blockade.
Once that happen, the vehicle was in an uncontrollable deceleration. Adding to the drama, the agent popped out after the vehicle hit the bank–there was nothing Finicum could have done to avoid hitting the officer.
Perhaps Finicum thought he could blast through and drive around the blockade, which made me wonder if he’d ever driven in snow before. If he had, it was pure desperation.
I say this, because of the folly of slugging it out a measly 2 1/2 foot drift on a dirt road leading to my cabin with a 4WD Suburban many years ago.
I’ll add a second thumbs-up. It adds a few more pieces on my understanding on how the West was “won.”
The movie Chinatown along with the opinionated, but entertaining Cadillac Desert by Marc Reisner was my introduction into sleaze that went into the development of the modern American West, and the folly of trying to make a living in the desert can only succeed with continual outside intervention and money.
And even then, it’s still bound to fail.
Finally, kudos to Law Enforcement for jujitsuing Bundy & Co. into jail by remaining professional, calm, methodical, and above all, patient while avoiding the drama of a Waco-styled shootout and multiple Congressional investigations into Bundghazi.
Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are you actually obtuse?
The Bundyites did not “accidentally” walk into “some” unoccupied buildings.
They purposefully walked into some buildings they knew would be unoccupied (knowing that the administrative offices were closed on the weekends), having spent weeks terrorizing the people who worked there by following them and parking outside their homes.
Their intent may not have included the death of anyone and everyone, but they stated publicly many times that any attempt to remove them from the Refuge would be met with deadly force.
You don’t really appear to know the facts here, Princhester; you appear to be trying to make the situation fit something you already have in your head and what you have in your head is inaccurate, incomplete and often not even wrong.
Which isn’t terrorism. You just ain’t gettin’ it. This is a terrorist planning meeting:
*"What’s the basic plan, Timothy?
“Well, I figure we go out an’ kill some people or at least hurt 'em real bad, so that everyone is terrified.”*
This is a Yeehawdist planning meeting:
*“What’s the basic plan, Joe?”
“I reckon we hole up in some empty buildings. If they try to get us out we’ll fight back”*
You probably can’t see the difference. I think most of us can.
As to the concern the Bundyites created pre-occupation, if that’s terrorism then so is worrying people by open carry. As I understand it what they did wasn’t even illegal, even if concerning. That’s a long way from terrorism.