The Census, Hispanics and Race.

Factual Questions
21

There is a distinction to be made here, and it’s a big one. The level of detail for Asians and Native Americans is just as fine as the level for Hispanics, which is to say, it’s by country, not by ethnicity. If your ancestors are from Vietnam, they’re Vietnamese as far as the Census is concerned; the Census isn’t interested in whether they’re Viet or ethnic Chinese or Hmong or any other group. Ditto for the Latin American countries. If your family is from Venezuela, you’re Venezuelan, regardless of whatever Indian group you’re descended from. And so forth.

That being said, what the Census does is split the difference. Yes, you’re white, but you’re also Hispanic, so when all the pretty maps and reports come out, you’ll be in the set marked “White, indicating Hispanic origin”. There is another set called “White, not indicating Hispanic origin”. (Or words to that effect. I don’t think I have any of these in the house.) Again, it’s not perfect and it won’t make very many people happy, but there it is.

On further reflection, I agree with whoever said that it’s bad form design. There is not nearly enough explanation on what some of these questions are really looking for.

22

I can see where Sapo is coming from, and it IS confusing. I mean, in Puerto Rico, in Spanish, they have a thousand names for slight variations in skin color (only mild hyperbole :wink: ). The thing is… at least coming from our side, since Hispanic culture is different to what is portrayed as mainstream “white” or mainstream “black”… For some of us, to classify ourselves as “whites” makes no sense. There are people that, even if they consider themselves “white”, the “white” mainstream society, the ones with whom they interact, will not put them in that category if they could. Same with the “black”.

Not to mention that even “white” kids are in reality very very mixed. I’ve said it before here, pale as I am, if someone from antebellum south used genealogy to place me, I’d be put in “non-white”. A more recent example, one of my best friends is what could be classified in the form as “black”. Her son (God bless him, he’s a cutiepie!) is paler than me.

I haven’t seen the form yet, but is there a box for “mixed”?

23

Hispanic or Latino is a matter of personal preference that’s all.

There is no right or wrong answer.

Here’s an extreme example, I know of a man who’s Japanese. Ah here’s the catch, although his mother and father were born in Japan and all four grandparents were born in Japan and every single ancestor he can trace was born in Japan, HE was born in Mexico, when his parents worked there.

He tells everyone he’s Latino becaue he was born in Mexico.

There are many full blooded Native Americans (Indians) who are 100% Native America and they call themselves Hispanic or Latino simply because they were born in Mexico.

Now to me the term Latino or Hispanic would imply you have some “Latin” or “Spanish” ancestory. But not everyone sees it like this

24

While I can understand part of your point, you made that first sentence sound a bit as if it was something light. As a choice between chocolate or vanilla ice cream, or something trivial.

25

Ok, what if you’re Arabic? Definitely not “White,” but there’s no box in question 9 for you to check off, except “Some other race.”

Why is there such a breakdown for the Asian people-- a box for Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, Filipino, other Asian-- but not even one box for Arabic/Middle Eastern?

Seems weird to me.

26

They may not expect that, but if that’s what happens, well, it’s information and it might prompt them to revise the form for next time.

More and more people in the US have such mixed ancestry that they really can’t be pigeonholed into the old categories.

27

Interesting that you say he’s the son of a black person, then feel the need to add that “he’s a cutiepie” and mention his light-coloured skin. :confused:

28

Happy Lendervedder writes:

> Ok, what if you’re Arabic? Definitely not “White,” but there’s no box in question 9
> for you to check off, except “Some other race.”

I know people who are “Arabic” in some sense, and they would certainly call themselves white. One co-worker of mine is 100% Lebanese in ancestry (and he grew up speaking Arabic, even though both he and his parents were born in the U.S.), and he certainly looks white to me. Turning “Arabic” into a race is rather strange. Arabic is a language. The countries where Arabic is spoken as the national language are not ethnically homogenous.

29

“White: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.”

So, as far as the census is concerned, you’re white.

30

Shrug He IS the cutest most adorable baby I’ve seen (and again, God bless him*), and I really tend to find newborns and babies “not cute” (actually more like naked mole rats). I’m actually sorry he is so pale, though, if I got teased about it, so will he. :wink: And if I gush about him is out of love.

But that was just to point out that most Hispanics (as well as an increasing number of non-Hispanics) are mixed, and that trying to split them apart with “white” or “black” doesn’t work.

*Because I grew up in a culture where, if you say something about a baby, you have to follow it with a blessing.

31

I live in a city that’s 30% Arabic, and those people here that have ancestry in Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine, etc would beg to differ with you. Your one co-worker and the U.S. Census Bureau aside, I don’t think most people of Middle Eastern descent consider themselves “white.”

32

I stand by my claim. Does anyone have any polls showing whether Americans of “Arabic” ancestry call themselves white? Granted, even calling someone of Arabic ancestry doesn’t make a lot of sense. Arabic is a language, not a race or even a region of the world. I think that what Happy Lendervedder actually means is Middle-Eastern ancestry. In case, does anyone have any statistics? Note: NOT ANECDOTES. Happy Lendervedder and I have now given conflicting anecdotes. Clearly anecdotes will prove nothing.

33

Forget I said “Arabic.” Apparently I misspoke. I meant Arab.

The point is, if there were a box for “Arab” or “Middle Eastern” or “Chaldean” or “Assyrian” or whatever on the census, I would imagine people with Middle Eastern ethnicity would check it. Why are there separate boxes for every separate Asian country and Hispanic background (in question 8) on the Census? Because they have different cultures, ethnic backgrounds, etc. My argument is that Arabs have a different enough culture and ethnic background that they should be able to self-identify as their own specific Middle Eastern flavor on the Census.

Lord knows in post-9/11 America they’re separated out enough in other parts of our government and culture, why not let their numbers be fully counted for political, educational, statistical and funding purposes too?

Here’san interesting article from 1997 on the subject (granted it’s not a poll).

34

Yeah, I could get away with White (although my mom, the Italian, was once told by some jerk at customs that she could not put White on a form since she was Venezuelan and her birthplace is in Africa). I am just not comfortable with it. I don’t identify with White (not that there’s anything wrong with that). I know many who would make fun of me for it, and rightfully so.

What about my wife? She is a typical Latin American. What should she mark? She is most definitely not White.

35

An interesting take.

36

Y’know, when I look at the mirror, the physiognomy that looks back at me is predominantly mediterranean caucasian. True, I have some amerind and slightly less african participation in my ancestry, but most laypeople wouldn’t know unless I told them. Furthermore my native language and the religion in which I was baptized both harken back to the shores of the Mediterranean. Thus I belong to the Western Civilization. So I check “white” with not another thought. But my hispanidad or puertorriqueñidad are specific cultural components that were laid upon those foundations by historic process and geographic circumstance that led to the aforementioned race-mixing and to the development of specifics ways and customs of using that language and looking at that civilization and defining my place within the world.

I have zero problem with not having a custom-fit checkbox under “race” (which in any case I thought was a discredited arbitrary construct that means whatever you want it to mean), since I DO have Hispanic - Puerto Rican under ethnicity, which is something real and identifiable, that we get to live with and apply every day. It’s in the “ethnicity” box that we should be able to get specific.

(Of course, I must admit that in any box for “nationality” I’ll mark AMERICAN almost as much because I understand it to be true as to tick the hell out of certain people :p)

Part of the problem for many is that there are two loaded factors behind “white”. One, this connotation that “white” is not just a “race” designator but also a sociocultural designator: that it does not just denote “mostly of caucasian phenotype” but also connotes “…* AND *either already part of the predominant anglophone( in US; make that criollo in Latin America) group, or at most one generation off from Europe on the way there”. The other, the old “one single drop of blood” criterion, by which any slightest trace of race mix made you immediately “colored” and subject to all that meant. But that being so, what do I achieve by expecting to fit in a category of “race”, except validating those criteria?

Also, it’s not all the fault of the Census. Another part of the problem, that led to something like 80% of people in PR marking “white” in the 2000 Census, is that for all the loud proclamation about identity pride and “la raza” and how enlightened we are and whatever other BS, when push comes to shove, a huge portion of people of mixed ancestry in this blessed isle WILL pick the “whiter” alternative offered, or else use any of the multiple possible designators for mixes. Yes, there are dozens of designators for mixed race in our culture - mulatos, jabaos, trigueños, aindiaos, etc. And what’s their most common use in everyday life? As a euphemism to not call someone “black” :rolleyes: .
IMO wanting a “Latino” or whatever category to be given the “rank” of “race”, to add to the white/black/Asian/Native classification would just be validating that old system and breathing life into it when it really should be our aim to eventually drop that box.

37

You guys are making more out of it than really is needed.

In my day, I’m mid 40s, there were three races.

You were Caucasian (White), Afro (Black) or Oriental (East Asian)

It was very simple but not terribly accurate.

Most groups were forced into one of the three groups. Arabs and Indians (from India) were put into Caucasian, while Native Americans (Indians) were classed with Orientals (mainly due to similar eye shape). Afro were largely contained to Africa but the Melanesians were often put there too.

The thing is people are used to defining race via skin color. But there are very dark Caucasians and very light Africans. I’ve seen Indians from southern India that are much darker than blacks in my Chicago neighborhood, yet they don’t resemble Africans in any other way other than the dark skin.

If you will look at US Census forms and stats it says “Hispanics may be of any race.”

So why do they put it there? Mostly for information. And the key info is language. Spanish has become the second language in America and that information is much needed for future planning. No one cares if you’re white or black or Asian, that doesn’t matter much for planning but the ability to speak English does. So we need this information.

If you consider yourself Hispanic, put it down, if you don’t consider yourself Hispanic, don’t. It’s 100% up to you.

38

This discussion is interesting. At the root of it is the question of how far into specifics the census should go, rather than broad generalities. Hispanic is too broad, so there needs to be a series of options to drill down to more exact desrciptors than just “Hispanic”.

For me, I don’t have that option. My ancestry is German, Welsh, Irish, and English. I have the “white” option. That’s it, just white.

39

Sapo, tell us about your wife. Where do her ancestors come from, going back as far as you know? Are you saying that she is darker-skinned than you?

40

Don’t forget that it’s perfectly acceptable to check more than one box for race. In fact, if you are a definite multi-racial person (say, white/asian), that’s what you are expected to do. In the OP’s case, perhaps he should check both “white” and “other”.