A civil lawsuit, filed in August 2021 in federal court by the Huber family, seeks “to hold the municipalities and law enforcement officers involved in the police response to the protests liable for (Huber’s) death,” This is not a second amendment thread. The purpose here is to follow the case and discuss the responsibilities of Rittenhouse, the municipalities and the police officers.
From the article you linked to:
“(The Defendants’) conduct, as alleged in the complaint, involved forcing protestors into a confined area with hostile, armed individuals, and then failing to protect the protestors from violence perpetrated by the armed individuals," Judge Lynn Adelman wrote in the ruling.
AIUI, Rittenhouse claimed he shot all three in self-defense, and the jury at his criminal trial accepted his explanation, especially since it was corroborated by witnesses. One of those witnesses was in fact Gaige Grosskreutz, one of the three people Rittenhouse shot. Grosskreutz, who survived, testified that Rittenhouse didn’t shoot until Grosskreutz raised his own pistol and aimed it at Rittenhouse.
From the quote above, the plaintiffs are complaining that the police failed to protect protesters from violence perpetrated by armed individuals. The problem is that Rittenhouse was the one being subjected to violence perpetrated by each of the three people he shot:
If Rittenhouse had been unarmed and beaten senseless by Rosenbaum and the others, then he himself might have had grounds for a civil suit against the Kenosha police for the reasons outlined in that quote. But Huber (whose family has filed the lawsuit), without justification, had struck a potentially lethal blow with his skateboard on Rittenhouse’s shoulder and neck and was wrestling for control of Rittenhouse’s gun when Rittenhouse fatally shot him. I don’t believe Huber’s family is entitled to a payout from either Rittenhouse or the Kenosha Police under those circumstances.
We can use a little more guidance to moderate this thread.
Do I have this right?
- This is to discuss the upcoming court case but to avoid getting bogged down into a 2nd Amendment thread.
So what is on the table for discussion?
I imagine you’re looking for something like the mass shooting thread and the police response?
The case is based on the civil responsibility of the municipalities and others involved. The city had solicited volunteers and was imposing some kind of order. I’m not sure of the legal issues but I have extensive experience as a volunteer. It involves training and a contract with the parent organization. Did Rittenhouse have a contract? What was the agreement between volunteers and police? Who was responsible for Rittenhouse actions? Did he represent the city or was he an individual citizen?
I believe it will be an interesting case outside of any second amendment issues.
A jury might see things differently. You can try the same case 10 times and get 10 different results. The court’s jury instructions on the law will be critical in this case, and quite different than the issues in the criminal case. I’m not predicting how it will all turn out, but I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on the prior criminal trial.
The issue is - in what capacity was Rittenhouse acting? Rittenhouse claimed that the police had solicited his aid and had defined a post for him to protect. If that is true then the city is responsible for his actions. Was he informed of his responsibilities and limitations? Did he follow his instructions?
The police union is very sensitive to volunteers duplicating police work. They probably will not back up a claim that he was in any way deputized to act in a police capacity.
You’re discussing how the civil case might be decided. While I agree that “it ain’t over until it’s over”, the OP was asking for our opinions on the culpabilities/responsibilities of the various involved parties, which is not necessarily the same thing…
Even if that’s true, he is entitled to exert lethal force in self-defense, just like any police officer would be.
Is it even conceivable that the city could have forbid him from defending himself against violent assault?
Yes. Volunteers are not police, but they can find themselves in dangerous situations. When I was protecting archeological sites, I was specifically directed to never approach a suspect. And never to carry arms when on volunteer activity. I was assumed to have the good sense required to avoid dangerous situations. I was not empowered to act as “any police officer”. I, and Rittenhouse were not police officers. The volunteers job is to report illegal activy to the proper authority.
The criminal trial dealt with brief events. The civil trial will deal with what he was doing there in the first place. Who was responsible for placing an armed teen in a life and death situation? Was Rittenhouse involvement appropriate or even legal?
Is there a cite for him making this claim? The Wikipedia page only mentions that Rittenhouse’s assistance might have been requested by a car dealership:
I read through the article, but I’m not seeing anywhere that Rittenhouse claimed the police had solicited his aid and had defined a post for him to protect, as you claimed upthread. What am I missing?
From the article "“Officers enabled and encouraged predominantly white, right-wing armed civilians and militia groups that night, creating a situation in which tensions escalated and people were killed.”
The details of the process will be the subject of the trail. Did Rittenhouse have an agreement with the car dealer? Were the police officers authorized to deputize Rittenhouse? Did Rittenhouse properly operate the weapon? Was due diligence exercised in these matters?
I’m not lawerly but I have served on juries. A question that will be on the judges instructions is: “Did Rittenhouse commit a deliberate act that resulted in the death of Huber?”.
Is it legal to deputize a 17-year old?
It should be an informative trial.
According to the article, that quote is a vague claim written by Leah Watson of the ACLU (her original article from November 2021 is here). It is not, as you claimed, an admission by Rittenhouse that the police had solicited his aid and defined a post for him to protect.
In her article, Watson further wrote:
The day after Kenosha Police shot Mr. Blake, former city alderman and self-proclaimed commander of the Kenosha Guard Kevin Mathewson wrote a racially charged “call to action” inviting armed civilians to protect Kenosha from “evil thugs” the following day. The comments on his Facebook invitation, corresponding Reddit threads, and Infowars degenerated into racist threats to kill and maim protestors.
Further down in her article:
Mathewson asked Sheriff Beth and Kenosha Police Chief David Miskinis to deputize these armed civilians and militia groups, noting that more than 3,000 people accepted the online invitation to “protect” the city.
So Mathewson was a former city alderman, with no official authority over or representation of the Kenosha police. And while he may have asked the Kenosha Police to deputize certain armed civilians, I’m not seeing any evidence that such deputization ever occurred.
OTOH, Watson’s article does contain info that suggests the police may have herded protesters toward militia groups:
Ryan Thomas Balch, an armed civilian affiliated with the Boogaloo Bois, was recorded saying on the night of the shootings, “Do you know what the cops told us today? They were like, ‘We’re gonna push them down by you, because you can deal with them, and then we’re gonna leave.’” In an August 26, 2020 written statement, Balch added, “K[enosha] P[olice] D[epartment] made a conscious decision to abandon the people of Kenosha to people they felt justified in using machines and weapons of war against. And were going to piss them off and drive them at us and let the chips fall where they may.”
If it can be confirmed that the police knowingly and deliberately created a dangerous situation by herding protesters toward militias, then I suppose the plaintiffs might have a case against them, but I don’t think they have a case against Rittenhouse specifically.
Thanks for the information. I was interpreting the article based on what I remember of the incident.
“If it can be confirmed that the police knowingly and deliberately created a dangerous situation by herding protesters toward militias, then I suppose the plaintiffs might have a case against them, but I don’t think they have a case against Rittenhouse specifically.”
I assume the money is in the City, County and Police Union. Self defense is no longer the issue. The question is whether or not Rittenhouse was acting in some official capacity and if so, by whose authority? If so then was Rittenhouse qualified for the task - that of wielding life and death authority over citizens? If not did the car dealership engage him - was he an employee? Is the dealership responsible for the results of his acts? Or, was Rittenhouse just some kid who shot people while playing Cop?
I believe the case against Rittenhouse will be interesting. Huber saw Rittenhouse kill someone and sought to disarm Rittenhouse. Huber was killed in the process. So is disarming an active shooter an assault or an act of bravery?
On jury duty I was always amazed by the extent of the difference between the two definitions of the same problem.
I am also not a lawyer, but I think in the criminal trial his decisions prior to the shooting were not relevant. All that matters is that slim slice of time where he was assaulted and defended himself. In the civil trial, I think it opens up a lot more of his decisions prior to the shooting to scrutiny. Did he put himself in a position where he would have be likely or probable to shoot someone and so does he have some liability as a result? Was he down there with the intent to shoot somebody? Etc.
I make no prediction on the outcome although honestly it feels very much like a long shot. The police always seem to have a lot of leeway on how they deal with events, and of course, they have no duty to protect. This is well established.
Honestly, Rittenhouse might be more vulnerable than the city because he was a civilian making a series of bad choices. As I like to say, the problem with going looking for trouble is you might find it. He did, and he did. Even so, my guess is that the lawsuit ultimately fails unless there is something really damning like he had some kind of desire to get into a fight, or an email from the police chief or mayor saying “Hey, drive the protestors towards the armed guys hostile to them, and maybe they’ll get shot.”
You mean something like a recording of Rittenhouse saying he wished he had his gun to shoot people he supposed to be shoplifters just weeks before the fatal incident?
Yeah, something like that. I thought I remember something about that from his case.
If I remember correctly, Kyle’s buddy had a connection with the car dealership and Kyle tagged along. Sometime during the night some of the guys at the dealership, including Kyle, leave their post and end up mixing with the protestors. At some point, Kyle gets separated from his buddies and that’s when he gets attacked by Rosenbaum. During the altercation, he shoots Rosenbaum and flees. I don’t remember hearing that Huber directly witnessed the shooting (as stated above), but remember in the video how word travels fast that the guy who is running down the street shot someone. That’s when Huber tries to intervene and is also shot and killed.
I think if the police or local government had directly solicited civilians to come “protect the city” it would have come up in KR’s trial. What might be interesting is if they maybe encouraged business owners to do so privately. It’s also possible that at this point there is no real evidence of “herding” or encouraging confrontation of some sort by the police, but the lawsuit will allow Huber’s lawyers to get access police recordings, video, etc. that might reveal some “unofficial” plan to that effect. The problem I see for Huber’s team, though, is that the events that directly led to Huber’s death do not seem to be the result of that kind of police action. It’s not like the cops pushed the protestors to a place where “the Kyles” were waiting and a fight broke out. Kyle essentially ventured out and got stranded behind enemy lines where he was confronted/attacked.