**
Quite true. There are also plenty of opinionated idiots who think logical fallacies are a display of patriotism. Most of the intelligent posters spend their time explaining – for the 85th time – that all Muslims are not wild-eyed, greasy-bearded fanatics who will drop a live grenade in your pants as soon as look at you. This necessarily detracts from the time the intelligent people have to make intelligent posts of interest to the rest of us.
Welcome back- even though I rarely agree with you. Hell, there are many who weren’t banned who could have been.
One poster even thought it was Ok to accuse me a “trolling” in GD, even though Mods have warned against such, and he wasn’t even spanked.
Welcome back, Collounsbury. Please keep in mind that you can’t cure all of the ignorance you encounter, only a very small portion of it. Even then, some ignorance is incurable - remember to change what you can, accept what you can’t change, and cultivate the wisdom to know when to say ‘fuck it’ and walk away. Oh, and you can’t give someone an ‘open mind’ by cracking their head open with a baseball bat, no matter how logical (and appealing) the idea seems. 
Since you seem to be living in the world’s current hot spot, I’d also like to extend wishes for your continued safety and well-being.
Peace to you.
Now I’m under pressure not to say something stupid and piss Collounsbury off. 
Well, what can I say. I point you to my message on coming back and the message to the Admin upon which it was based. I am what I am. Arrogant. Yes, with good reason, but I represented I would strictly abide by the rules, not be a font of sunshine.
Further, I think my comment was accurate – I was not calling board members stupid, but the wave of stupidity about the subject which I was refering to is real.
Much nonesense, rank and utter nonesense has been written on the Mid East.
Now then, I am attempting to be respectful and do precisely what I represented to you all, in private and in public. If you think I misrepresented myself, then please say so, and we can discuss that.
Else… well, I point you to my return message. I believe I am fully fulfilling it.
Don’t you people sleep, ever?
Anyway, I’ll try to do a more comprehensive analysis of Russian opinion on the Iraq conflict, but my favorite news site (www.regions.ru) isn’t showing much at the moment that isn’t already available in mainstream English-language media. There is a story on RUssians who want to donate blood for shipment to Iraq, but that it’s not technically feasible due to transportation problems, severe blood shortages withinn Russia, and a comment that many Iraqis wouldn’t accept the blood of non-Muslims anyway (is this even true?). There are stories criticizing the Coalition for its extremely unjustified optimism on how this war would shape up, militarily. There are some stories on economics: Ukraine wants to be Iraq’s economic partner in rebuilding, that sort of thing. There is a report that the Republican Guard is not allowing civilians to flee Baghdad. I’ll look for some more regional opinions later (Central Asian/Caucasian FSU country sources), but I’m less familiar with those sources, so it will take some time. Also, since I get to see my father and brother maybe a few days a year, I’d rather not spend it all online, no matter how fascinating the discussion.
By the way, I find the analogy between Saddam Hussein and Stalin to be very interesting (in terms of public opinion toward outside invaders, patriotism, etc.) Even non-Stalin-loving Russians talk about the achievements that were made during his rule in terms of literacy, industrialization, etc. with great pride. Many see the Stalinist period as one when the Soviet Union (with Russia at its head, of course) leapfrogged from a backward pessant society to being a world power, and doubt that it could have been accomplished without at least some of the severe measures of those times. Many see Stalin as the only way the USSR could have survived WWII. Even members of ethnic groups that suffered greatly during his administration (the North Caucasian nationalities who were deported to Siberia/Kazakstan, some Ukrainians) have a kind thing or two to say about him. (I’ve never known a Jew who had a nice thing to say about Stalin, though.)
So does anyone care to comment on the extent to which an analogous phenomenon might be taking place in Iraq?
Also, is there anything whatsoever that individual Americans can do on a micro-level to allay any suspicions that Iraqis might have that a) we’re out to get their oil and take over their country, and b) we think they’re a bunch of backwards hicks who don’t understand what we’re up to?
And one minor request for a friend: he’s been invited to speak in Egypt in May (he works for an international organization which will hold a conference there). He speaks only English (and bad Croatian) and has never been tot he Middle East, and is rather conspicuously American. Should he take a pass on this one?
ANyway, I have to go for now, but I’ll check back later.
I must stop posting before caffeine! I meant to post this in the MENA thread. I’ll copy it there, but if a mod feels the need to delete here, please do so.
Forgive me, but bullshit. I fail to see any reason for anyone to be as arrogant as you portray yourself. Expertise is no excuse for hubris. You’ll have to pardon me if don’t abase myself before your great and wondrous beneficence. And as I said previously, the superior attitude you have assumed bodes ill.
Never asked you to abase yourself. I ask myself to live up to the rules, nothing more, nothing less. I don’t ask you or anyone to abase oneself or like me or anything of the sort.
As for boding poorly, like I said, I made the representations I did. I didn’t come back to burn your confidence, I did not come back to abuse folks, and I did not come back to get into fights.
I made a sincere apology, mea culpa, and have been disciplined. That is that.
Many people whose opinions I respect have greeted you warmly. (That may say more about them than you.) For that reason, I am trying to keep an open mind. Further, I like to read informed opinions and I am willing to tolerate some small measure of arrogance to gain knowledge. As an educator, I can tell you that arrogance is not a good teaching tool.
Do you frequently make such generalizations or have I misunderstood you?
Since I don’t know you, it would be personally helpful to me if you would bring me up to date on why your insights on the Middle East are given such credence. (I gather that you are currently living in the Middle East.) I like to “consider my sources.”
Why is your return of such consequence as to merit its own thread and such an extended explanation and apology?
Finally, I am hoping at some point to see the comments and questions in Eva Luna’s post addressed. (Interesting, EL!)
As I am about to hit the “Submit” button, I realize that I need to stick my head in a basin of ice water so that I will stop writing in this affected manner and return to my own natural voice. I shan’t be so pretentious again.
Not with specificity, no. But that is, however, the general impression I have received, not only from your additional statements in this thread, but from your initial post here as well. I’m afraid I don’t see any change in your attitude and in my opinion this does not portend well.
Anway, since your time is so limited and I don’t wish to detract from your self-assigned Mission, I will make this final statement and leave it at that. Yes, you screwed up, were disciplined, made an apology and mea culpa. I have no disagreement with you there. My point, which I’m sure I’ve been making poorly, is that your apology, to me, doesn’t appear all that sincere. You already display symptoms of what caused you trouble in the first place; you admit you’re arrogant and that you intend to continue this behavior. It’s not a long slide from there to condescendence and then down into contempt. (In fact, I see what I believe to be signs of contempt in your mea culpa itself.) One who holds others in contempt is not likely to respond to them, no matter what their level knowledge (or ignorance) on a particular subject might be, with civility and equanimity. This is why I say your statements, and displayed attitude, bode ill—they’re unchanged.
I truly wish you well, Collounsbury. As I think I’ve said, I do believe you have a lot to contribute to the battle here. Good luck.
For a consideration of “importance” (as measured by the strength and passion of opinions held and expressed about him), consider the thread that was begun after Col had been banned:
Collounsbury, 6-3-2000 to 11-28-2002
which followed an equally intense discussion prior to his banning:
A question for David B, Gaudere, and MEBuckner
Consider dropping in on Lounsbury on Iraq & MENA: War, Politics, Economy & Related Questions now appearing in Great Debates (and running into its fourth page and 187th post as I submit this).
On the first point, yes it says more about them than me.
On the last point, well, I am in business, not education so… I was often urged to be a prof, and I told those who urged me that I would be insufferable as one. Obviously I was right, as usual.
(the last was a joke you know. making fun of myself)
Generalization? It’s my considered opinion, of course this is the pit and not a proper discussion so I was not precise.
I have lived and worked on in and around MENA-Africa for about a decade. I speak the language. I know the region well.
After than, well, it’s simply posturing, I consider myself objectively an expert, but to go on and on saying why seems like posing. I prefer to let my analyses and writing speak for themselves. If I am right, then I am right, if not, well the words are there to check out 3 months down the road.
I believe that my commentary on Afghanistan stands the test of time, for all that it was imperfect. Perhaps on reading it you will disagree. If so, fine. I would only hope with good reason.
My return is of little consequence, some people like me, some really dislike me and many are indifferent. I am a divisive charcter in the end, the arrogance rubs people the wrong way. The thread and extended apology was my gesture, an offer I made on asking to return and accepted and required by the Admin. My banning had led to no small discord, as did my rather irascable and fairly disrespectful behaviour leading up to the same.
There were accusations of special treatment – always the tension between cutting the well established slack versus the newcomer. Obviously that made the moderators lives harder, something which I truly do regret a great deal.
So, obviously on coming back after so much discord, I owed everyone an apology, a mea culpa, and something of a clearing the air. Especially since the Admin is taking a chance I will melt down and they will get the “told you so” chimes. That is one thing that really bothers me, for they don’t deserve that.
Actually in general I hate it when I see the Admins and Mods getting crap because someone was banned. Big deal, it is a message board, there need to be rules - reasonable and flexible, human enforced rules. Let the bannee get in touch with the Admin, and all can be made well, if one is reasonable. Look at me, clearly my mea culpa was not 100% pleasing, but the conclusion was made I am sincere (I am, flawed, but sincere). Very reasonable. Obviously they, the Administration et al are owed reasonableness in return.
But getting burned on the return, well that would be bad. Why should they put up with crap? Obviously that is what our Dear UncleBeer is concerned about. And fairly so to an extent, although I was very clear in my return mea culpa that I is I. Not sunshine and chuckles, but I made a “contract” and I will abide by it. Now on that matter, should anyone regret that, well, I would be happy to discuss that with them. Perhaps I resent slightly the idea that making a simple comment, in the Pit of all places, in re a lot of stupid things being said about the Mid East has provoked this discourse. But as I said I know where it is coming from, and as I said in my return post, I know I have things to prove.
What can I say. I made the bed, I may resent slightly having to go to bed in it, but I accept to an extent his point – alhtough again, I do feel the comment itself was hardly so bad.
See Great Debates.
In the end, like I said, I hope to contribute more than I detract, but I also am firm on reiterating, I am the person I am. I made that point clearly when asking to come back, and as sincerley indicated I understood the problems. If you collectively think the negative outweighs the positive, get together, send me an email and we can resolve that w/o any problem.
C
Well, that’s ten stories of steaming fetid pustulous crap.
If you want to be Cassandra’s time capsule, write yourself a registered letter, bucko. If your return is to be more than a wank, you have to inform and persuade. I get a lot from you - I can’t recall seriously disagreeing with you, and I learn a lot. But if you’re as arrogant as I am in real life, you won’t feel diminished if you have to stoop to concquer. If it’s worth making the point, it’s worth making it it in a way way that will be heard. I agree with what Uncle Beer has been saying.
How the hell has this kicked off already?
Let us know as soon as arrogance is added to the catch-all don’t be a jerk rule, and I will check myself out and save the admins the bother. Unfortunately in fairness about 75% of this board should also revoke their own posting rights, including a fair share of the mods.
We’re anonymous people arguing our theories and beliefs on an internet message board - arrogance is pretty much required just to think that anyone else on the net gives a shit about what you think, yet alone that your pet opinion is somehow more valid than the guy you’re railing against.
And quite why saying “let time judge if I am right” is festering shit compared to saying “I must be right as here are my qualifications” is completely beyond me, and I must be right because I’m a professor in debating logic.
I happen to appreciate a lot of your input as well, Collounsbury, but I can see a problem with the attitude. If you’re only here to teach and elucidate others then you’re only fighting half the battle against ignorance. I don’t give a sweet damn if you’re every bit the expert, everyone can learn something. The continuation of the attitude that the wisdom flows in only one direction, from you, beneficiently down upon us undeserving mortals, will do you no good as a person or a poster. One must be both a learner and a teacher. To give up one’s willingness to be a learner is to abandon the path of wisdom.
Enjoy,
Steven
On Preview: Gary, there’s arrogance, and then there’s ARROGANCE. Once arrogance reaches the point where one pontificates instead of discourses then their arrogance becomes ignorance.
Erm…my version of Internet Explorer doesn’t appear to come with the handy “colour coding of posts by arrogance” feature. As such, it seems that differentiating arrogance and ARROGANCE is a bit subjective.
As an alternative couldn’t we just see if people follow the guidelines for the various forums (and by pit standards the OP doesnt seem bad at all) or do I have to download an upgrade?
Sure, but you have to remember that one of the rules is “Don’t be a jerk.” I’d put pontificating instead of discoursing in the “jerk” category.
Enjoy,
Steven
Just so you know, Gary, it ain’t arrogance itself that anyone gives a damn about. I should that was perfectly clear from my posts. It’s the type of behavior that arrogance can lead to that is concerning. That, too, should have been clear from my post. Did I not mention the slide from arrogance down into condescendence and contempt? I’m certain I did. And even Collounsbury had recognized that as a vaild point. Surely a perceptive individual such as yourself can tell the ducks from the geese.
And in any case, this was a rather calm and polite thread. If you wish to turn in into something else, well, have at it.
And on a second reading, my own post comes off condecending to you, Gary. Please allow me to apologize; I’m sorry. That was not my intent. I did however mean the perceptive remark. My opinion of you is high.