Wow, thanks for the link, dalovindj. Having followed this thread, i was generally agreeing with those who criticised lieu for his actions, while also conceding that sometimes fear and frustration can make us do silly things.
But the key is whether or not we learn from our mistakes. Given the number of people who, despite any number of bad days and provocations, manage to go through their whole post-junior-high lives without punching anyone in the face, lieu certainly does seem to have anger management issues. And, given that we have only his word for what happened on that freeway and in that garage, i think his pattern of behaviour is as telling as the scenarios he paints for us.
I know lieu has appeared extremely contrite in this thread. But he was also contrite in the last one. At least we can hope that his contrition will last until the next time he decides to punch someone in the face. Or until he’s finished paying the debt (to his lawyer and/or “to society”) that he incurs on this occasion.
I must admit, the link to another case of lieu assaulting someone made me rethink the whole thread, too.
lieu, you seem like a nice guy and I hope everything goes okay for you, but you’ve now assaulted at least two people, apparently just because you could not control your anger. And people DID warn you that you might face jail time if you did it again, and sure enough, that’s what you now have reason to be scared of.
I’m a fairly assertive, protective man who’d had reason to be angry with people on many occasions, but I’ve never seen fit to assault someone even once.
I think you really need to consider the possibility that the problem lies with you.
Do I get angry with bullies and have a hard time backing down? Yep. I don’t believe it’s at all difficult to be nice, friendly and get along with everyone. It’s how I approach the home, workplace, everything. When someone way outside the norm shows me outright agression and either puts me or a family member at risk then yeah, it’s possible I’m going to get very offended. Maybe I’ve not always handled my contempt for dispicable behaviour well but I damn well gaurantee you I’ve always started on the recieving end, I don’t look for conflicts.
Dj, you say this thread is not a good idea because it can be used against me and then you post a link you think would do me damage. Displaying your typical modicum of class I see. And can it with the “Oh you should have listened to me” crap. I can’t remember ever reading anything of yours that didn’t sound like you’re trying to portray some flowery image of yourself. Are you still mad we laughed at you in your “Hip” thread?
Until you’ve been in my situation, I’d appreciate it if you keep your sanctimonous comments to yourself.
Maybe I’m an easy mark for assholes that want to escalate an issue. I’m seriously trying hard to find better resolutions.
I didn’t start this thread, remember? You did. Twice. Class? Smacking people around seems really civilized and high class let me tell you. My goal isn’t to do you damage. My goal also isn’t to not do you damage. I feel violence is awful. I’m just trying to prevent future occurences (from you or anybody else who reads) by raising awareness. You make posts like these OPs and people come in and say things like “I’m glad you hit him!” and I can’t just standby. I think that attitude is dispicable.
Instead of insulting me (even when others think I was being polite), why not listen? You come to the pit to talk about your violent episodes. You seem to be wanting people to tell you that it was OK and you gave him what he had coming and that your situation is unfair. It wasn’t OK and you behaved innappropriately. Sorry, this isn’t the place for everyone to agree with each other. I feel you are in the wrong. So you insult me. Shocker.
Petty. What does that have to do with anything again? Oh yeah, nothing. It’s like dealing with a child with a bad temper.
Tough. Don’t post about it on A PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD then. Not a tough concept to grasp. Why did you start this thread a second time? What has changed? Maybe you can find some folks around here that will massage your guilty concience, but I think you should feel guilty. I never claimed to be perfect, or incapable of similar mistakes. In fact, in the linked thread I expressed that my feelings on this issue were based on my own foolish mistakes involving violence. I learned from those mistakes though, and I hope you do from yours.
Good luck with that. This quote alone would have been a much better response to my post. Instead you got insulting, petty, and vindictive. Nice show. Classy. Real classy.
I’ve changed my mind. Lieu, if I were on your jury and knew abouth that highway incident, I would argue that you be sentenced to prison. Perhaps as an alternative, you agree to undergo some form of psychotherapy.
You have a prediliction for violence, and you KNOW you have such a prediliction. You initiate the incident – you get out of your car, or go onto your neighbor’s property. You seem to have no clue that moving into their space in a confrontational manner is more likely to rachet up their tension and defensiveness. And then YOU throw the punch, and rationalize it after the fact into some kind of defensive act on your part.
Part of your story about the highway incident simply do not ring true, and there are big gaps in your story about the confrontation with the neighbor. I believe you were actually entering into a rage state, and may do so again.
You said in an earlier post:
But what you DID provide was already sufficient to convince me of your guilt, as I had already stated. Why would you withold details that would mitigate that guilt? Or would such details aggravate the guilt?
I said in my first post in this thread that you should shut the thread down. You’ve chosen not to do this. You seem to be continuing to seek justification for the actions you took.
I truly wish you luck. And I truly believe you are in serious need of counseling.
As soon as I saw dalovindj’s name in this thread, I knew it was going to be an “I told you so” post. He did the same thing in the deleted thread.
Feh. I’m still behind you, lieu. I admit I probably wouldn’t have reacted the way you did, but I’d have wanted to. There’s worse things you can be than someone who doesn’t take crap from bullies.
I think it’s possible in some cases to be too civilized. Maybe if more people were willing to punch the assholes in the nose, there’d be less people willing to act like assholes. (I doubt this will be a popular position, though…)
Yeah, I did. When he deleted the thread last time, my response got deleted with it. My goal isn’t for everyone to realize how smart I am, and I take no pleasure in being right. I didn’t pit him. I addressed the issue only when he brought it up. I want to be sure that people think twice about using violence as a solution. In a way, the OP of this and the other thread encourage violence. I feel these type of attitudes make the world a worse place to live in. I’ll try to change them as often as I have the opportunity.
I addressed this type of attitude in the freeway thread as well:
This line of thinking is entirely foolish. Who get’s to define asshole? I don’t want to live in a society where everyone feels free to punch anyone who frustrates them. That is, to me, the purpose of laws and government. To protect us from people. We should all be aspiring to never punch anyone ever, IMHO. To want MORE PUNCHING is to want society to take a step backward. Again, I am not posting to show how much better I am then anyone, nor to dazzle everyone with my moral code. I am simply trying to discourage future violence. Sue me.
I feel dalovindj is drawing too many parallels between this case and the case with the bad driver.
My own feelings are that if someone threatens your loved ones, and you have good reason to believe the threat to be realistic. Then you should (must) do everything within your power to protect your loved ones. Not to say that lieu’s actions were perfect, but the alternative possible actions don’t seem so good either.
Of course my feelings based on taking what lieu said in the OP as the truth of the situation. I have seen no reason to doubt what he said.
Cheers, Bippy (fingers crossed)
It’s a shitty situation all around. His neighbor is a dick. There is nothing good about any of it. Still, violence isn’t the answer. It looks to me like he made the situation worse, not better. The guy is still his neighbor. He now has the means to possibly put the guy in jail. How does this help his child or wife? Do you think it makes them safer? I don’t. None of his options were ideal, but violence was (and usually is) the worst choice he could have made. Never mind the fact that said actions are illegal (and with good reason IMO.) It’s really hard to protect someone from behind bars.
Where’s the line? You know, the line that some people think lieu crossed.
Are we all supposed to be sheep? Is that it?
I haven’t been in a fight since the third grade, and I’m a big pansy coward to boot. I don’t like conflict at all, and I try my best to find equitable and peaceful solutions to any and all disagreements. I’m not married and I don’t have any children, either.
If I were and did, and some mouthbreather deliberately tried to run down my daughter, you had better believe that I would react.
The fact that I’m naturally cowardly doesn’t enter into it. If it were me, and some son of a bitch threatened my family (not to mention actually trying to kill my child) he’s going down.
No question.
A busted nose isn’t fatal, and it’s a damned effective “don’t screw with my family” message to an agressive idiot. That guy was an active, dangerous menace.
Let me tell you a couple stories and then come to my point in defense of lieu.
Once I lived with a bunch of room mates. They went to a concert with a bunch of friends and came back to the apt. afterwards and all got completely toasted and then crashed. I stayed home because I was on call. I went to bed early.
The next morning I got up and went downstairs to go to work and my (ex)friends wife started screaming and yelling at me about the mess I made making breakfast. I don’t eat breakfast and I HATE bacon and fried eggs. (please don’t hate me for that)
She went hysterical! She picked up this antique red glass ashtray(mine) that weighed about 7-10 lbs. and tried to cave in my skull. I grabbed her wrists to stop her and she yelled her hubby’s name and “He’s hitting me!” He saw the whole thing, I hadn’t even had coffee yet, I’m groggy and wondering what the hell I walked into. It never even crossed my mind to strike anyone (I’m a peace freak) I only wanted to keep my cranium, it’s the only one you get you see. He started punching me in the face while standing behind her((a brave soul) and we went down. I picked them both up off me at once and put them under me (I used to lift a lot of weight when I worked out) and calmed them down to the point where I thought it was safe to get up and leave.
Second story.
My then mother inlaw in a drunken rage burst into Myand my (now ex)wifes place and proceeded to go nuts about some imagined (I don’t remember now) infraction on her daughter’s part. I’m very protective of the ones I love. I don’t give a damn about myself if the damage won’t be to severe but don’t think about hurting them. I instantly spoke up in my wife’s defense and told her mother to leave. Yes there was a lot of yelling when I did that. My wife went and hid her face and sort of went fetal, rocking back and forth. The next thing I know her mother is rushing me like some crazy fiend and grabs something to crush my precious cranium. Again I grab wrists and again I hear the yells “He’s hitting me!” I yell for my wife to come because I want a witness. I’m convinced her mother is crazy. My (now ex) wife is still (at that time but not now at this time as far as I know) rocking, saying “No, no,no I can’t…”
To the point. Here are two cases where I am telling you my side of the story and you have to judge. Is there a pattern? Is he telling a lie? Is he a woman beater?
Sometimes we don’t get to live the pretty lives of others. I mean not everyone gets surrounded by nuts. In fact some folks don’t get to encounter nuts that often at all. Some people actually do have for want of a better bunch of words “bad luck”, others seem to be wearing charms.
My friends have an expression. It’s called “Lewis Luck”. I hope none of you ever catch it. I like to look at it this way. For every bit of shit I have to take someone out there gets something good.
How many folks do you know whose boat breaks down after a day tuna/marlin fishing and both radios won’t work because the antanna cable has gone bad and the spare antenna is open (another chafed wire) and burns out your radios and you have to resort to flares and it’s Fourth of July and you think “Great. I’ve got a bunch of one shot red Roman candles.” I never made it back. Just kidding. Another boat saw us and gave ASSistance. The first mate mooned us.
How was the guy who flipped you the bird in traffic “showing you outright aggression” or threatening your family? No offense, but it kind of sounds like you might be a bully yourself. Who’s punching who?
You attacked the guy in traffic, too, for no good reason at all, so you have a prior history of losing control and attacking people. You never said if you got in trouble with the law for that, but if you did, it certainly explains the arrest for the most recent incident. Why should the cops believe the guy who has a prior history of assault?
Sorry, but you’re the one attacking other people. I don’t know any rational, self-controlled gentlemen who have twice attacked other people without physical provocation. I think you really need to examine why it is YOU have done this more than once, when other people seem to avoid this sort of situation by, you know, not throwing the first punch.
You seem unwilling to see the significance in the fact that it was you who, twice now, have escalated verbal conflicts into criminal acts. I hope you do start to reflect on why it is you’re the one using your fists.
That is obviously false. In Attack #1, YOU walked up to the guy and attacked him. He was sitting in his car. Sure, he told you to fuck off; you were still the one who approached him, and you did so in an aggressive manner. You were clearly looking for a conflict; you weren’t going up to the guy to offer him tea and crumpets, were you? So, there we have a case of you looking for a fight, and starting a fight.
In Case #2, YOU went onto the other man’s property. A verbal argument ensued, and again, you attacked him. Maybe he was threatening your family - I mean, that’s a good reason to be angry - but the fact remains that you went over there looking for a confrontation, you got a verbal confrontation, and then you assaulted the man. Why should a jury/cop/SDMB Doper believe your story? This guy may have a very different story. And he didn’t punch you, so where lies the evidence of irrational behaviour?
If you don’t want people posting their opinions, don’t post the story on a message board. Sheesh.
Sorry, man, but you’re going to have to explain to me how your story relates in any way to what this thread is about.
Let’s assume that we believe everything lieu told us about what happened to him, and everything you tell us about what happened to you. Now, let’s look at the differences: in both cases, you acted in direct self-defence against actual physical assaults, and it also seems that you did as much as possible to prevent the assault without going over the top in retaliation. In lieu’s driving incident, he got out of his car, abused a guy (who had, admittedly, been acting like a dick), and when the guy abused him back he hit him. In the second incident, he went to the guys place, argued with him for ten minutes, and hit him at the end of the argument, without once, as far as i can tell, telling the guy to put down the tyre iron or simply attempting to go back to his house and call the police.
The point some of us are trying to make here is that plenty of people in this world behave like assholes, and if you’re going to go round punching them in the mouth then don’t be surprised if you end up in court and if people aren’t too sympathetic.
Note that this position regarding lieu’s behaviour is tenable even if every single thing he told us is the exact truth of what happened. It’s not a matter of whether we believe him or not; it’s the fact that, even if we do, he was without doubt the instigator of the actual violence in the first incident, and was arguably the instigator in the second.
And, as dalovindj suggested, if all you want is handjobs then talk to your wife, and don’t post on public message boards. If you do post on message boards, expect people to give you their honest opinions, and don’t whine when they do.
Two incidents do not make a pattern. I don’t think that the traffic thing is as connected to his reaction to the threat to himself and his family as some here suggest. They are distinct.
on a side note about road rage. For 12 years I drove ~70 miles each way to work and home (all uphill! Yuk Yuk Yuik) and I was a “sorta” road rager, I flew the bird for the first year or so when I was pissed at idiocy. Then I realized that I was driving. To work. And then home. These are people next to me on the road and they are doing the same thing too. Some are rude. Some just aren’t very good drivers. Should I let them piss me off? no
Those years taught me a lot. I saw that even I make mistakes that piss others off. (I know, you can’t believe that one. Niether could I.) There is a word. Civility. We don’t practice it a lot. I’ve seen it anti-practiced here on the SDMB even.
That said I’ve entertained the idea of sqashing other folks car parts with my bare hands from time to time. It’s entertainment. And then I move on to thinking about the next episode of “Get Smart”. 99 is HOT!
I’m glad I live downtown in a big city in a huge metro area and not in a $2-300k house set in an area carved out of a forrest. It sounds downright dangerous in dat hood.
Well the situation may be better (I doubt it but it may be) the dick could now be sufficiently scared of lieu to decide not to confront him or his family. I think the dick will expect to be seriously harmed by lieu if he does harm his family whilst he is in jail if the worst happens and he goes to jail.
After all, if you found your neighbour was an ex-con would that make you more or less likely to threaten himor his family? (of course the dick is by all accounts not a normal rational person, so what you or I or any doper would do is not an indication of what the dick would do).
I tend to think just moving away would be the worst thing lieu could have done, since it inconviniences him and his family greatly, and would just lead to some other unfortunate having to live next to the dick. Violence is in this case in my opinion the second worst option.
You might want to mention that to all the lawmakers nationwide (26 states, i believe) who think two incidents make a sufficient pattern that a third offence qualifies for a “three strikes” law which can, in California, put you away for 25 years for petty theft.
I believe your own state of Virginia is one of those with a three strikes law.
Rick & dj: IIRC, “politely tapping your brake lights” just because someone’s tailgating you is also considered to be aggressive behaviour, part of road rage.
I also reiterate what I mentioned way back earlier in this thread: lieu did not personally witness the event which set him off on his neighbour.
I still hope the court doesn’t lock him up. After all, he has a family to support and a job to do. Probationary periods are designed for just such reasons.