The Crimson Glyph (Werewolf/Mafia/Psychopath)

The Game Room
481

How is it anti-Town?

We can discuss things in light of the recent lynch. We can share things we might not be able to since one or more of us might not make it to Dawn.

There’s a downside to Night talk, that we might give Scum a clue as to who we are and aid them in deciding on their NK, but…um…just because we can share things doesn’t mean we have to.

In all, I see a big plus, sharing information, with a small downside, we might slip and give Scum a reason to kill someone.

So, I suggest, talk, share, but don’t be stupid.

482

needed to get that Night kill order in to him, eh?

:eek:

483

unless the executor prays and removes the sin from them.

484

That’s all well and good, and I’d be inclined to agree with you, BUT Pede mentioned that both Ostracization AND Execution are two methods of lynching. There’s a lot to think about in this game, I’d not be worried about this. As far as I can tell, the only difference, as far as the lynchee is concerned is that he/she can preform a night action that night, and then they are gone.

485

****OK, I had planned to do my analysis of yesterDay’s vote in one big info-dump tomorrow morning, but I have some free time, so I’ll get started and maybe do it in segments.

The main thing I find suspicious about the voting (aside from the fact that it didn’t go the way I thought it should have!) is that on not one, but two, separate occasions, Angel seemed to be in danger of lynch, and both times she was rescued by votes piling up for Spurious. If this had happened once, I would think likely coincidence; twice makes me really wonder.

Here, in a normal game, I would insert a disclaimer about how most of the people voting for **Spurious **were certainly Town. In this game, with the (reasonably presumed) higher scum:town ratio, I’m not sure that is so certain, but certainly many Townies must have voted for him.

Most of the people who voted for Spurious gave his voting to execute as their reason, or one of their reasons. As I’ve discussed at length, I don’t think this is a good reason to vote for someone, but I don’t think it’s so horrible a reason as to be innately suspicious even on Day One.

The first two people to vote for Spurious were **Chronos **(post 162) and AllWalker (166). I have a low level of suspicion of these two; it seems most likely that scum trying to propel a bandwagon would pick a candidate who had already demonstrated that at least some Townies were willing to vote for him.

Immediately afterward (post 167) Mahaloth casts the 3rd vote, putting George into the lead. Interesting thing about this: back in post 107, Mahaloth had agreed with Special Ed and me that we should deal harshly with anyone who edited a post. However, once a post actually is edited, **Mahaloth **never has anything to say about the matter! He doesn’t explain why he’s not voting for Angel; unless I missed something, Mahaloth goes the rest of Day One participating fairly actively, but *never commenting *on the fact that someone has done this thing which he had said should not be done, and was now getting votes for it. Also, as I noted earlier, Mahaloth’s attitude toward Spurious seemed to change radically over the course of three posts (164 ot 167); though Mahaloth did offer a plausible explanation for that.

Shortly thereafter, **Mahaloth **unvotes Spurious and votes for a lurker. As I commented at the time, there is a plausible scum motivation for this; having gotten the bandwagon rolling, he now hopes not to be on the list of those who voted for a Townie at the end of the Day.

On the other hand:
*Since I think the case against George was rubbish, I can’t be too suspicious when other people come to agree with me! This could be a case of a Townie reconsidering his vote honestly.
*If he was trying a scum maneuver, he was a bit premature about it; his unvote put **Spurious **only two votes in the lead, and I then closed it to one.

On the whole, I end up moderately suspicious of Mahaloth.

Post 170- Joey P puts **Spurious **up 4-2. That’s four out of nine consecutive posts which have contained a vote for Spurious! That’s a lot of people to just happen to make up their totally disinterested, independent minds at the same time! Joey is one of the **Spurious **voters not to mention execution, rather latching onto his comment about “not wanting to be the Sinner casting the last stone”. For timing and lameness of justification, I see this vote as moderately to highly suspicious.

(Note that in post 217, I already commented on the above four votes)

Nanook provides vote #5, with a relatively well reasoned case focusing on the execution issue. Low to moderate suspicion, based on timing.

Alright, that’s all for tonight. Chapter 2 tomorrow.

486

Hey, I’ll directly quote my post 107, where you said I agreed to deal harshly with anyone who edited a post.

I wrote:

Not exactly me agreeing with harsh treatment. In reality, I probably didn’t comment on Angel’s edit. I honestly do believe her that she just goofed with the color scheme and didn’t think much about the edit. I have no idea if she is scum or not, but I never did put much weight into that minor edit as a evidence. I guess I could be wrong.

However, now that we are entering Day Two and everyone has figured out the board, I’ll go on record.

I currently support harsh treatment for anyone who edits. K?

487

I was wondering when you would get around to smudging me :stuck_out_tongue:

488

You taught me well

489

Look, there is no reason to look too far into this just yet. There is a really simple explanation.

Why does the part I bolded have to mean anything besides the use of Power Role? That is what you are calling a “choice”. If both forms of lynching act as recruitment for the bad guys, how is the Town supposed to win? Every smart lynchee would convert, as the worst any scum faction can do in any Day is to lose one member.

Think about the balance here: Blackhearts are regular scum - they NK, they dwindle in number. The Sinners are recruiters - they convert a target at Night. But this conversion is imperfect, thanks to Prayer, so they have two avenues of conversion - Night and execution.

Likewise, O and E are balanced. The destruction of a power role is risky, as it might be a good guy power role. Plus, there is the chance for Sin conversion. Ostracizing is risky because it keeps the power role intact, which is risky if it is a bad guy power role.

These are, based on what ped has told us, the game mechanics. It makes sense, it seems to be balanced. Why would there be the need for any hidden perils to ostracising? Honestly, coming up with bullshit like “O acts as recruitment for blackhearts” sounds a lot like scum trying to scare people into executing.

490

Why does it imply a power role at all? it was do something not “use their power”.

So while the rest of us are trying to figure out what is going on, you already know?

Really? Your commitment to Town winning is so low that you would readily jump ship to get a personal win? Morale fibre with your breakfast cereal?

As Pede indicated, ostracising is the morally appropriate way of cleansing the town it could be very well a moral choice - leave the game or be recruited.

Same with Sinners - they have the choice to win with the Sinners - or to pray and rejoin the town.

Really? you know sinners can actively recruit at night?

You appear to have overlooked the second part of the the quote from Pede Execution ensures that the target won’t come back which would imply the Ostracizing does mean that the lynchee could come back.

491

Not what I said, Allwalker.

Control of the vote IS NOT recruitment.

It could, for example simply render someone who has been O’d with out a vote. (Of course, the Mod would still, let them vote, but simply not count it in the OFFICIAL vote.

Win con would not change. Your alignment would not change. You could, and still would talk pro-town. You would NOT be recruited, you simply would not vote.

**I find it odd that you went to derail me. I can only wonder at your reasons why. I would bet you were trying to hang out a red herring, away from yourself.

If I am half the scum you say I am, would I have made post #350

NO ONE has any idea what O does.* Yet, somehow, you KNOW my take on the idea is wrong. Somehow, you apparently come from some other place that I do. ***

**
And, I am not buying this “I’m new to this board” line for a minute. What other board have you been on? Don’t all boards have the same basic options?
**

492

Okay, fine, I am making an assumption there. But the only things players can do at Night is either use their power, or scumkill. I have yet to see a viable extra option.

I never said that.

My commitment is to win. What the hell is yours? For the Girl Guides to win? If I am converted, I will play towards my new win condition. If my side looks doomed, I will try to convert.

Any problem? Maybe you would like some realism with your coffee?

IMO that’s not how “do something” should be read. Obviously, YMMV.

Sorry, I thought this was explisitely stated in the rules. But how else do they get their numbers up?

Unless you mean they might recrut during the Day - fine, but the exact timing doesn’t change my point.

Fits my interpretation of the game mechanics.

Look, I am just running with what we have been told, with a few extra guesses, as we all are. But I am making sure that the guesses I make, they make sense from a game mechanics point of view. If you assume the scum have Power roles, which seems like a reasonable guess at this point, then the benefits and consequences of O vs E become clear and simple. Even if the scum don’t have power roles, the possibility that they might would be enough to motivate execution over ostracising occasionally.

493

NETA : Apparently I got my people mixed up there. :smack: :o :o :o

Since I am not Scum, let me also NETA the following.

**AngeloftheNorth, sorry about that. Clearly, you see where my last post was headed, sorry to mis-remember you in the post and get you caught in my cross fire. **

Angel, loud and clear, I have no reason to attack you currently.

However, I don’t think you can deny the situation the game would be in, if Allwalker came on as baseless as they are, AND tried to feign being a noob.

I think we can all see where Allwalker is going, and the town can agree that attention needs to be paid to Allwalker right now, not you.

494

So what would be the point of them voting? To show their support one way or another?

For one thing, having all “dead” people be able to talk and unofficially vote would kill the game. We know each person’s alignment on lynching - they would be guaranteed innocent commentators. It would throw off the balance considerably.

Another thing, I still don’t get what you mean by “control the vote”. Are you saying the scum would get a bonus vote for every O’d player? If so that is a harsh twist, and that is strange on ped’s part for not mentioning it.

And I find it odd you think i am picking on you personally. And I never called anyone scum. I made accusations of scummy behaviour, but it takes more than one example of this to build a case.

What I was trying to “derail” (by building a case, albeit an aggressive one, for the opposite argument - oh noes!) was this continuing idea that ostracising has some bizarre, harsh and as yet unmentioned consequences. O and E have to be fairly even choices, and the way I see it, they practically are, in the long run.

I don’t claim to know what it does. I claim to have a really good hunch on the broad principles of it. Personally I am operating under the assumption that ped told us most of what we need to know, not the bare minimum.

The town can agree to whatever the town wants. You are not it’s representative. If, however, you want to label me scum based on one post where I effectively call your idea stupid, then go ahead. Keeping me under a microscope does not hurt the town, and doesn’t bother me. As I said before, one post does not a case make.

495

I am not a sinner, so I have no insight into how their “recruitment” works. Where in Ped’s description of the game rules did you think Ped suggested some form of night-time recruitment by the Sinners?

Please tell me if I’m wrong, but in terms of written rules, I have only read that they gain sinners by “capturing” the last person who votes for a successful execution.

Am I wrong about my basic understanding of that?

496

Post #32:

The response:

While I’m posting, another point to those complaining about my interpretation of ostracising and Night roles, check post #112:

Not “no”, not “unduly alter game state”, but “depending”. As in, depending on the nature of the power role.

I didn’t make this stuff up - I intepreted the all mighty mod’s words.

497

Thanks, AllWalker.

I see how you reached your conclusions. I have to think about things a bit.

498

How about, come dawn, we simply ask ped whether spurious george is still in the game…thus avoiding another two pages of rules lawyering?

499

All I know for sure is this:

I am so glad we will at least get SOLID information in just over an hour.

That’s the good news.

The Bad news, the 17 of us will offer over 50 ways to play this thing.

This game is not Haggle. That becomes apparent once anyone understands “If the town wins, everyone who was town wins”.

Haggle is everyone for themselves, and it is a given, it is expected. In that sense, everyone is equal.

The moment something sticks to someone, people snowball it as best they can to make it bigger. They do all they can to make it a flashing neon sign.

My hope, is that after Dawn, we can finally right this thing, and gain ground on what we need to do.

I wish I could put this post into the “passive” comment section, but, you know, like I said, 50+ plays from 17 people should speak for itself.

500

BillMC can chime in if he wants. Given that there were two posts, back to back quoting, and commenting on your comments, it was obvious, at least for a second, that the town, as a whole, was looking at you.

Strange that you automatically assumed I meant attention as “scum”.

The “power” role of voteless townie is nothing new, it is well documented. I would assume there are far more vote modifying townie abilities. Double vote townies exist, and I can only assume that blackhearts would be interested in roles of the type.

For the last time:

Those who have been O would vote as normal. The Mod will not OFFICIALLY tally that vote when he makes the lynch announcement. At the same time, a Blackheart would pass a SECOND Day lynch vote to the Mod in private.
If nothing else, Mafia is a game that you can NOT take at face value.

If the game confuses this system, so that only the game can take advantage of it, I would not be a bit surprised.

I remain amazed at how, stacked, this game can get, once you assume a simple “Us and Them” set up, with near equal firepower.

SO FAR,* let me be clear*, I remain intrigued by the complexity of the game. The execution (No pun intended) of the game, leaves something to be desired.