I’m sorry, how has Christianity caused deaths by lack of medication? Just trying to get information, since what information I have doesn’t indicate anything in that direction but of course I am not any kind of medical-history specialist.
Hospices, hospitals and similar are pretty much a Christian invention. I don’t recall anybody threatening to burn Louis Pasteur at the stake. My country’s first fellowship was given to a 17-year old who had already learned everything the local healers and priest could teach him and got sent down to Cordoba to study with Averroes, the greatest doctor of the time. Records don’t show anybody whinning that the boy might get turned into a heathen muslim, just some argument about who got to pay for what (his town had been able to come up with money to cover the trip; the kingdom provided the medieval equivalent of a passport, a list of contacts and housing at the ambassador’s - our grants are still the most “no strings attached” I’ve ever seen).
Paulette Cooper. She was one of the first vocal critics of the cult. She wrote a book called The Scandal of Scientology and they made her life a living hell for many years, even getting her indicted on charges of threats to bomb the cult, charges which were later dropped.
Included in the documentation is the infamous “Operation Freakout” detailing how to get Copper committed to a mental institution.
Cooper is part of this 1985 60 Minutes feature on $cientology. The feature starts out seeming all kiss ass, but they soon get down to the truth.
Unrelated to Cooper, but another indication of how scummy the cult is is the sad and infuriating story of the Cult Awareness Network, which had been doing very good work in trying to help people learn about and recover from cults. The $cienos sued them out of existence, then bought their name in bankruptcy court, running CAN using their own people.
The celebrity idiots don’t do any research on their own. They go with what they’re told.
Vanity
Celebrities are treated like royalty. They learn and are shown only the best face of $cientology. They’re pampered and fawned-over. It appeals to their vanity.
Denial
Once they get sucked in, they’re in denial about anything supposedly being wrong with $cientology. They certainly don’t want to admit they were wrong. That would be embarrassing.
Blackmail
It’s a theory. You have to tell them EVERYTHING during auditing, and all that information is kept in “PC folders” which the cult claims is confidential, but leave and start criticizing the cult and see how fast they whip out that PC folder to dig up and publicize dirt you’ve told them in confidence. It’d make your head spin, most likely.
There’s always gonna be one case. There’s of course the case of Mother Teresa but I’ll let someone else handle that.
After the Napoleonic Wars, the improvements to the quality of life of the conquered Empire were systematically removed by the Rightful Heirs of the restored Ancien Regimes. Including vaccinations. Since a large part of their rationale for regaining their thrones was the Divine Right of Kings, one could make the argument that Christianity helped cause the deaths of the people who could have been saved by smallpox vaccinations.
What I was trying to head off was the argument that “Well, Christians used to think that epilepsy was caused by demons, and that crazy people were possessed, and that’s not any different from Scientology, really.” The main difference, of course, is that Christians believed these things in the 1500s and Scientologists believe them now. That’s why I said they occurred before we had any rudimentary understanding of illness.
Granted, Constipated Mathematician hadn’t yet made that argument, so I might have been getting ahead of myself a bit. However, he did mention Jesus as someone who died as a result of Christianity, so… the idea didn’t seem too farfetched.
I wasn’t trying to accuse Christianity of anything, and I wasn’t really trying to set up a straw man, although now it kind of looks that way, and I do apologize for that. I just… well, I got ahead of myself, and I should have waited to see if the argument came up at all.
… on preview (how did I miss this before?), it looks like Ludovic came up with some much more recent examples. Again, though, I’m not arguing that Christians don’t believe in disease. It’s just a potential argument that someone could make in an attempt to prove that Scientology is no worse than Christianity. Which, to me, is bullshit.
A cite or two would be too much to ask? Which anciens regimes did you have in mind?
Where was this a right under Napoleon?
A large part? As opposed to just putting back in place the rulers who had been in charge before Napoleon’s unjust wars of conquest?
Right, 'cos if it weren’t for Christianity, the Church wouldn’t have put kings back on their thrones, the kings wouldn’t have banned the right to vaccination, and no-one would have caught smallpox. You’re sure about all the links in that chain of reasoning?
What part of this are you disputing? Without Christianity there would likely be another political form entirely in Europe due to its millennia-old intertwinement with the upper echelons of society. Likewise, without Scientology there would be no Scientology-related deaths, either.
Which does not mean that people wouldn’t have found excuses for brutality under either circumstance, but who knows?
You’re right, there’s no way it’s at all in the same league as scientology.
And there’s no way I can reasonably be interpreted as having said anything which comes close to implying this.
And my “comparison” was by no means constituted by any sort of assertion or wide ranging truth claim. One poster baldly speculated about what was going on with LRH. In turn, I baldly speculated about JS. These were both couched as purely “here’s what I think happened, I’m not really arguing or giving evidence for this” type posts, which means I certainly was not intending anyone to go out and proclaim “JS was a con artist and so was LRH” based solely or even in part on having read my post.
Guinstasia, to use two phrases in a sentence or paragraph together is not to put them in the same league together–it is not necessarily to associate the two concepts involved in any way whatsoever, in fact.
I’m sure you know that, but you seem to have forgotten it lately.
-FrL-
I don’t want to put words into Frylock’s mouth, but I wonder if he wasn’t referring to the LDS extremists in northern AZ and southern UT (do I have my directions straight?). If you go and read Jon Krakauer’s book (Under the Banner of Heaven), you’ll see that the LDS (at least that section) does indeed lay claim to some of the harsher CoS-type components.
Also, when I was reading the statements about Christianity and lack-of-meds, I was struck by the absence of any mention of Christian Science. No cites, but I believe there are multiple cases of children dying from lack of meds (I think I remember an asthma issue), and the parents being held liable. Am I incorrect?
As far as CoS goes, I think it’s a very, very good example of marketing to the masses. Seriously…if you can get a bunch of ego-obsessed (I’ve read the Enquirer, therefore I know!) celebrities to join anything…the American masses will follow. That’s one of the sadder points. I’d love to see an experiment where 5-6 celebrities tout somethign totally worthless (sliced rubber bands, dryer lint), and then track purchases. I believe the purchases would be huge in scope.
Lastly, why all the crapping on Constipated Mathematician? I thought he came in a little loose, but tried to defend a position (again, a loose position) and was demonized as a pro-CoS person. If we don’t allow for some type of back-and-forth, the SD will become homogenized.
They also have “Celebrity Centers” where the few and chosen can hang out, get thier ass kissed, etc. I’ve a feeling some of the more gullible celebrities out there think this is the norm for any member and don’t realize they are being bribed to be spokespeople.
Not to mention the Jehovah’s Witnesses and their ban on receiving blood transfusions.
I too am surprised at the witch hunt being directed at Constipated Mathematician. Just because he’s not a frothing at the mouth critic of the CoS (and he admitted that he does not know much about it, which is generally the case with people outside of the SDMB I’ll have you know) doesn’t mean that he is one. And even if he IS, he’s not being abusive towards anyone. Whatever happened to fighting ignorance? I guess it doesn’t matter when the subject is clams.
So it seems that the intelligent and educated people who sign up for scientology are in it for the money? It is in their best interests to keep the system going, destroy all who try and bring it down, because they are doing very nicely thank you? I can’t believe that they are in it because they truely believe.
Let me understand. Someone hates $cientology enough to post a rant. The 1,483-word OP, and ensuing posts, hardly qualify as an informative report — and a link to a SF Gate article and an Internet site called “Operation Clambake” aren’t what the casual observer would call sufficient to generate such extreme feelings toward $cientology, as opposed to so many other horriffic acts in this world. So, a few posts in, someone asks why such extreme vitriol? You’re response is not to explain why this issue is so much more important than all the other crimes out there, or even important at all, but instead assume the person is a lazy apologist. Because a flash video about Marty McFly vs. Dianetics and an Internet page called Operation Clambake should be more than enough to show the severity of the threat to us all.
A handful of words and some personal attacks serves to make the case in your mind, and you’re calling somebody else lazy? Well done.
To be honest, you sound like a $cientologist shill attempting to make their opponents look irrational, hateful, and insane. If that’s the case, then you’re doing a very good job.
Can you point out the witchhunt to me? Equipoise got shitty, a couple of people got a little holier-than-thou, and the rest of us wanted to know where Constipated Mathematician was coming from, so we asked a few questions and explained our own positions. It seemed like the most of us were just trying to provide info, and not attack.
And since I started the whole “Christianity/Medicine” hijack: I didn’t mention Christian Scientists and Jehovah’s Witnesses because I am under the impression that they’re both kind of fringe groups. I could be wrong; it just seems like the vast majority of Christian churches DON’T shun medicine or believe that disease is a punishment from God anymore. That’s the main point that I’ve been trying to make. Being a Scientologist is NOT just like being a member of any other religion. Methodists DON’T put a hundred dollars in the plate every time they’re at church. Jews DON’T sue everyone who looks sideways at a star of David. Muslims DON’T put their mentally ill children through the purification rundown and deny them any medication. Scientology is NOT a religion like any other, and that’s why a lot of us find it troubling. At best, it’s a scam, and at worst, it’s genuinely dangerous.
I don’t think it was you, but a couple of other posters engaged in some name-calling that I thought was unnecessarily strong. CM was pretty civil from the get-go.
