The Cult of Scientology: Always Attack, Never Defend

The BBQ Pit
101

[QUOTE=Ludovic]
What part of this are you disputing? Without Christianity there would likely be another political form entirely in Europe due to its millennia-old intertwinement with the upper echelons of society.
[/quote]

Tosh. :wally

Which is code for “I dispute this assertion”.

No shit! :eek:

Do you mean you are backing off from your fantasy about the Napoleonic Republic bringing the benefits of vaccination to their liberated conquests, only for the Christian-sponsored previous rulers to snatch them away again when they were restored, or not?

102

[QUOTE=The Swan]
I don’t think it was you, but a couple of other posters engaged in some name-calling that I thought was unnecessarily strong. CM was pretty civil from the get-go.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but he was still a moron. I didn’t accuse him of being a Scientologist plant, I just thought his posts were astoundingly stupid, self-contradictory, and served no useful purpose in this thread. I can’t speak for anyone else in this thread, but that’s why I was giving him a hard time, and would not have treated him much different if the topic had been something other than the Church of Elron.

There’s still quite a few Christians out there who maintain that AIDS is God’s punishment on gays and drug addicts. It’s not as common as it used to be, and a lot of the mainstream proponents of the idea (such as Jesse Helms) have since rejected it, but it’s recent, it’s not entirely gone, and it has caused a lot of harm. However, it’s never been a part of any mainstream Christian doctrine, and I’d be the first to object if anyone ever tried to tar all Christians with that brush. The CoS hold that psychiatry is a malicious fraud as part of the central teachings of their belief. Which, as you point out, makes them different from any mainstream belief system.

103

[QUOTE=Miller]
Yeah, but he was still a moron. I didn’t accuse him of being a Scientologist plant, I just thought his posts were astoundingly stupid, self-contradictory, and served no useful purpose in this thread. I can’t speak for anyone else in this thread, but that’s why I was giving him a hard time, and would not have treated him much different if the topic had been something other than the Church of Elron.
.
[/QUOTE]

He is clearly not a moron, and his posts were not stupid. I could see how you might think them of little value, but I still can’t figure out why you felt the need to act like the SDMB’s version of Billy Bad-Ass over something so trivial. Again, he kept it civil, and you showed yourself to be nothing of the sort.

104

[QUOTE=js_africanus]
Let me understand. Someone hates $cientology enough to post a rant. The 1,483-word OP, and ensuing posts, hardly qualify as an informative report — and a link to a SF Gate article and an Internet site called “Operation Clambake” aren’t what the casual observer would call sufficient to generate such extreme feelings toward $cientology, as opposed to so many other horriffic acts in this world. So, a few posts in, someone asks why such extreme vitriol? You’re response is not to explain why this issue is so much more important than all the other crimes out there, or even important at all, but instead assume the person is a lazy apologist. Because a flash video about Marty McFly vs. Dianetics and an Internet page called Operation Clambake should be more than enough to show the severity of the threat to us all.

A handful of words and some personal attacks serves to make the case in your mind, and you’re calling somebody else lazy? Well done.

To be honest, you sound like a $cientologist shill attempting to make their opponents look irrational, hateful, and insane. If that’s the case, then you’re doing a very good job.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you over the flash video - but the website has some interesting links, along with other sites people have posted on here. The site on CAN and it being taken over by scientology was more than a little scarey (and AFAIK we don’t have a cult problem in NZ).

105

[QUOTE=js_africanus]
Let me understand. Someone hates $cientology enough to post a rant. The 1,483-word OP, and ensuing posts, hardly qualify as an informative report — and a link to a SF Gate article and an Internet site called “Operation Clambake” aren’t what the casual observer would call sufficient to generate such extreme feelings toward $cientology, as opposed to so many other horriffic acts in this world.
[/QUOTE]

I think there have been enough posts in this thread, for anyone who’s actually reading for $cientology content and not hijacks about Joseph Smith and Christianity, to understand why people are critical of the cult.

And just because there are other horrific acts in this world doesn’t mean that people can’t care about the things $cientology has done.

[QUOTE=js_africanus]
So, a few posts in, someone asks why such extreme vitriol? You’re response is not to explain why this issue is so much more important than all the other crimes out there, or even important at all, but instead assume the person is a lazy apologist.
[/QUOTE]

It is important. Not more important than “all the other crimes out there” but if this one isn’t important, then the others aren’t either. This is one topic of many.

You’re right, I assumed too much, and I apologise to CS (because accusing someone of being a $cientologist is a nasty thing indeed), but you see, this is their Modus Operandi, dating back from the early alt.religion.scientology days, to throw threads off track, to get the critics to stop talking about the cult and start talking about other things. All the cites in the world will not help because they get lost.

[QUOTE=js_africanus]
Because a flash video about Marty McFly vs. Dianetics and an Internet page called Operation Clambake should be more than enough to show the severity of the threat to us all.
[/QUOTE]

That’s just wrong of you. I specifically mentioned a Flash video called “The Un-Funny Truth About Scientology” which should be watched by anyone who wants to understand why we’re against $cientology. I never mentioned the one you linked to, and yes, that’s a very lame one. Why you chose that one instead of one that actually contains information, I don’t know. Why did you?

The Internet page Operation Clambake has plenty of information, including FAQs. If I were to port everything that’s there over here, this thread would be 1000 pages long. It’s the place to start, which is why it’s always mentioned.

And since $cientology’s plans for world domination (“The universe is a rough universe. It is a terrible and deadly universe. Only the strong survive it, only the ruthless can own it.” - L.Ron Hubbard, Scientology: A History of Man, p.38) are never going to happen, they’re NOT a “threat to us all.” They are a threat to individuals who join up without knowing anything about the cult, and get sucked in.

[QUOTE=js_africanus]
A handful of words and some personal attacks serves to make the case in your mind, and you’re calling somebody else lazy? Well done.

[/QUOTE]

You’re right. I was lazy too. But, the OP had included several cites in his post, and even quoted this bit of “wisdom” from Hubbard:

If that’s not enough to make people pause and think, hmmm, maybe I should look into this more before I ask why people don’t like $cientology, then I’m not sure what would.

[QUOTE=js_africanus]
To be honest, you sound like a $cientologist shill attempting to make their opponents look irrational, hateful, and insane. If that’s the case, then you’re doing a very good job.
[/QUOTE]

Oooh, good one. Very nasty. I’ve been posting in $cientology threads here since I joined. I posted on alt.religion.scientology back in the mid-'90’s as Xenu’s Sister. Just the fact that I can use the word “Xenu” should be proof enough that I’m not a $cieno. $cienos don’t learn about Xenu until they’ve been in the cult awhile, have paid many tens of thousands of dollars, and gotten to “OT III,” the level that tells about him (lots of people either go insane or leave the cult at that point). They’re forbidden to talk about Xenu to others (even other $cientologists). It’s a seeeekret. Not anymore though. Ha!

Btw, while we’re on the subject, I love that Xenu has his own Wikipedia page.

Absolutely nothing that any critic has said or can say or will say could make them look as “irrational, hateful, and insane” as $cientology makes itself by its actions and Hubbard’s writings. Hubbard himself was irrational, hateful, and insane, and so it’s “church” doctrine, because what Hubbard says, goes.

106

Another good source, Equipoise, would be the book A Piece of Blue Sky. I read it and some of the things in there made my blood run cold.

107

[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Another good source, Equipoise, would be the book A Piece of Blue Sky. I read it and some of the things in there made my blood run cold.
[/QUOTE]

Yep. A Piece of Blue Sky by Jon Atack can be read online at that link.

There are several good books online. Besides Paulette Cooper’s The Scandal of Scientology, anyone interested can read Bare-Faced Messiah, and Messiah Or Madman? (co-written by L. Ron Hubbard Jr.).

There are several others listed, some online and some not, here.

There are quite a few that I didn’t know about and haven’t read. One that looks very interesting (and the text is online) is…

Believe What You Like - What happened between the Scientologists and the National Association for Mental Health.

The Comment on the book page is interesting.

108

WHAT? It’s bad enough they took over CAN, they sure as HELL better stay away from NAMH!

109

I posted a question in GD about the pharma industry. E-Sabbath found me there. Now, I don’t know about a “witch hunt”, but why did he/she feel a need to follow me and “warn” the fellow board members?

In case you aren’t interested in the GD thread (which is still on the first page, I believe, I post the quote from E-Sabbath and my reply.

[Quote=E-Sabbath ]

Originally Posted by E-Sabbath
It appears our friend, Constipated Mathematician, is a Scientologist. While I have nothing good to say of the organization, individuals within it, as always, vary. However, I think this is worthy of note in this thread, insofar as the same would be true if a thread of the same nature were to be started by a Christian Scientist, a Jehovah’s Witness, or a member of the Nation of Islam.

Friend, I believe that it is possible that you have been taught things that are untrue. These things you have been taught have given you a perspective other than what the rest of the world sees.

Do correct me if I am wrong, but I know Scientology preaches against certain aspects of the medical field. Does this extend to the pharma companies?

You have a unique chance to ask a real, live, flesh and blood employee of the companies a question. Go ahead.

[/Quote]

My response (I feel it can go here too, since a few members are convinced of my CoS affiliation):

[Quote=Constipated Mathematician]

Paranoid, are we? :rolleyes:

I busted out laughing at this post. For the record, I am not and never have been (and as far as I know, do not know personally) a Scientologist.

Cripes, let it go already… Bleed me in the pit thread if you must, but this was a serious question.

I have to say… some of the conspiracy theories I’ve been reading about the scientologists remind me a lot of the goofy stories of the Illuminatti (sp?). In your world, Scientologists control the police, judges, the media… I never knew their power until entering that thread in the pit. I don’t even know how big their “church” membership is. You, on the other hand, know everything about them, and you are trying to stop people from falling under their spell. Good for you! Have you read some of those links in that thread? Scary stuff!

I have very little idea of what scientologists believe, other than a strong disregard for psychiatry. Oh, and someone/thing named Xena. But denying a tie to Scientology is just proving it, right? Is that how it works? :dubious: I feel trapped! OK, I admit it. I’ve see a couple of Tom Cruise films. And I loved John Travolta in Pulp Fiction.

The truth is I am a mathematician. And I’m constipated. Other than that, I’m just asking a question. And I’ve already thanked Fiveyearlurker for his most informative post.

[/Quote]

Some of it isn’t applicable to this thread, but I felt for full disclosure, it was important to put it all in there.
Thanks to some of you for pointing out the same thing I’m reading here. There are a few people that know more about the CoS (at least they think they do) than some actual church members. Have you actually tried reading those links? They make your eyes water. And the Operation Clambake website is amazing!

For posters like Equipoise, E-Sabbath, **Miller ** et. al, this seems to be personal. I believe (and apologies if I have this wrong) Equipoise has been on the case since the 70’s. That’s amazing… I suspect for you folks the CoS has some sort of personal connection to your lives. Friends, family members perhaps have been taken in by the church. Maybe they invaded your town. Or maybe you just want to stamp out evil when you see it. I don’t know. Honestly, it’s none of my business. (It’s not that I don’t care. I’m really not trying to be a heartless jerk. I’m just not emotionally involved).

I simply asked a couple of questions, that were interpreted as me being an “apologist.” So I read some of those links. I have to say, if you all have really read through all of that stuff, I have to wonder why? What could possibly fascinate/motivate you to read all of this material?

I didn’t say that Jesus was murdered by Christians, either. I implied that Jesus was killed after being tortured (I saw the movie). I believe the guilty (if you believe this story) were the Jews. My point was that murder is not/and has not been limited to the CoS. And if the CoS has been engaged in the activities to the levels that not only this thread imply, but the links as well, the whole church would have (or should be) shut down completely.

But the CoS goes on.

I asked once, and I’ll ask again. Are they a tax-exempt organization? Are they recognized by the IRS as a religious organization?

I don’t think Heaven’s Gate was (I’ll concede I could be wrong).

How did this happen? And is the IRS powerless to re-visit their exempt status for the CoS if they are indeed a cult, involved in all of the illegal activity alleged in those links?

I had a roommate who dated a Christian Scientist. He told me that she didn’t believe in traditional medicine. I don’t know if this is true, but if it is, would you describe this group as a cult?

Believe it or not, I appreciate the links and the info, but some of you are coming off as a bit “unglued” to prove your point. And have any of you been successful in keeping an actual person out of the CoS? Spreading this info. can be done a number of ways. There just seems to be so much anger.

I’ll say it again. If these people are what you say they are, let the legal system do its job. Hell, with all of this web info, it shouldn’t be too hard to build a case. And a final question. If they are as nutty as you’ve all implied, why does Hollywood deal with them at all?

Spielberg works with Cruise all the time. Doesn’t it bother him that Cruise is using that money to prop up a cult? Why isn’t Spielberg putting his foot down and refusing to work with this guy? Why aren’t you all hitting Hollywood with this information? If it’s indeed Hollywood money that keeps this thing humming along, removing the money source would be a good place to start.

my .05 cents.

I’ll be back in a day or two to see how many names I’ve been called this time. :cool:

110

Recently, Spielberg DID indeed put his foot down and say he’d never work with Cruise again.

111

[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Recently, Spielberg DID indeed put his foot down and say he’d never work with Cruise again.
[/QUOTE]

Really? That’s news to me. Do you have a link to a cite? (I believe you, I’d just like to read about it.)

And was this recently?

112

[QUOTE=Constipated Mathematician]
Really? That’s news to me. Do you have a link to a cite? (I believe you, I’d just like to read about it.)

And was this recently?
[/QUOTE]

No cite at the moment, sorry. I’ll try and look something up. Apparently, he was pissed that, instead of promoting WOTW, like he was supposed to, all Cruise would do was talk about Scientology and Brooke Shields and “Kate”. And rumor has it that Cruise got the cult to go and picket the office of a psychiatrist that a friend of Spielberg’s was seeing.

113

If you didn’t notice CM, I apologised and explained (not very well) why I reacted the way I did. If E-Sabbath is acting the way s/he’s acting because of what I said…

Stop it E-Sabbath.

If E-Sabbath has information I don’t, I’d like to hear it.

As for your other questions, they’ve pretty much been answered in this thread, so I’m done catering to your “I don’t really care but I’ll ask a bunch of questions anyway but not listen to the answers” gig. If you don’t care, go elsewhere and ask someone else why they’re bothered about something that hurts other people (make sure it’s something you don’t care about). If you care enough to learn, then read what people are saying, and don’t react to links with a ‘how could you READ all that?? why would you want to?’ because that’s just goofy (ooh, I called you a name!)

114

[QUOTE=Constipated Mathematician]
Gullibility comes in a lot of forms. I’m not saying that cults don’t exist. But what defines a cult? Some people think Catholics are a cult. And I’ve heard stories of pedophilia priests being moved around the country and the church covering it up. I’ve also heard they used money given to them by their followers to hire lawyers and/or buy off the victims of these crimes.

If people are sucked into Scientology, then by your definition they are Emotionally Vulnerable. Well, where is the Emotionally Vulnerable Police? If people find comfort in buying crap off of eBay that’s ok, but if they give their money to a “church” that you define as a “cult”, it’s not ok? How do you propose to protect the huddled masses, longing for a connection to the afterlife, or to other people, or to whatever?
[/QUOTE]

Well, after reading the thread, you have some sort of animosity with Catholics. Whatever, man. Shun the Church, hold onto the anger, whatever gets you through the night. I haven’t seen any real anger towards Protestants, Jews nor Muslims. But if you’re honest in your disdain of “religion”, keep focusing on that one group.
Now let me give you an analogy. Keep in mind Co$ was the first (major) “church” to be established as a non-traditional “church”. At least the first that was able to make it a somewhat scocially acceptable “religion”. Those smarter than I may be able to describe the culture in the '70’s when it really took off, but that’s another issue. I will say it involved a social shift in accepting “alternative” beliefs. It wasn’t a bad thing necessarily, it increased awareness of Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam.

It’s to the point now that you can register here and be ordained in a recognized church in less than 2 minutes. I’ve actually called County departments and found that it’s a legit organization. I could perform weddings, offer last rites. The IRS office has told me I could deduct, as a religious amendment, part of my housing costs if I hold “religious” meetings/ceremonies in my home.

It’s tempting, but the Excommunication looms large. You may not believe it, but it’s a big deal for me. Anyway, not here to convert anyone. Do waht you want, heathens. :stuck_out_tongue:

So let’s take this to what is no longer an extreme. Let’s declare Cecil Adams our spiritual/religious leader. Bam! Tax-free status to the Dope. If you pony up the cash you’re a member. A utopia Marx never dreamed of while shifting from capitalist to communist and back. A perfect world.

Of course, the Dope has your credit card info, IP address, and with minimal effort your home address. Should you become critical of the Dope, hang on to the ride you’re going to take. All that info will be used against you in the dirtiest ways to utterly destroy your life because you were foolish enough to join. Oh, your friends and family will be ruined as well in some cases.

Wait, you didn’t know joining the Dope carried that possibility? Neither did many joining Co$.

115

[QUOTE=duffer]
Well, after reading the thread, you have some sort of animosity with Catholics. Whatever, man. Shun the Church, hold onto the anger, whatever gets you through the night. I haven’t seen any real anger towards Protestants, Jews nor Muslims. But if you’re honest in your disdain of “religion”, keep focusing on that one group.

[/QUOTE]

I don’t have any animosity toward Catholics. I was just trying to use them as an example as to what others have said about cults and cultish behavior. I have to say, I really don’t have anger toward any religion. There are so many. I guess if I had to choose one to complain about, it would be the Born Again Christians (I’m not sure if my one roommate had a specific church he belonged to.) But, anyway, he told me I was going to hell for not believing in what he believed in. (not a quote, but close enough). Now that seemed a bit excessive to me. But he seems happy. And if heaven is full of a bunch of judgemental people like my old roommate, I’d take my chances in hell. :wink:

Equipoise, I didn’t notice an apology, but thank you. Obviously, you are passionate about the topic. That’s fine. And I’ve been able to learn quite a bit from all of this discussion. I think I’ve asked some legitimate questions. And I don’t think that I’m the only one that can’t get through all of the documentation, links, etc. provided. You, on the other hand, seem to have been reading about this for three decades. We are coming from two totally different POV’s. I’ll concede that you know much more than I would ever want to about the CoS.

As I’ve said, make your case in the courts and squash these people. Why is that an unreasonable proposition?

116

Just wanted to add a link to Equipoise’s list, Dave Touretzky’s Page (scroll down to the bottom), his Secret Library of Scientology and Secrets of Scientology are excellent additions to Operation Clambake.

HAIL, XENU!

CMC fnord!

117

[QUOTE=Constipated Mathematician]
For posters like Equipoise, E-Sabbath, **Miller ** et. al, this seems to be personal. I believe (and apologies if I have this wrong) Equipoise has been on the case since the 70’s. That’s amazing… I suspect for you folks the CoS has some sort of personal connection to your lives. Friends, family members perhaps have been taken in by the church. Maybe they invaded your town. Or maybe you just want to stamp out evil when you see it.
[/QUOTE]

Oddly enough, it’s not personal with me. The closest I’ve ever been to $cientology was watching a video in one of their orgs back in the 70’s. I was with a group of friends lounging in a park when we were asked by a woman to come learn more about $cientology. They took us into a room and started the video. We were rude teenagers and when it started talking about how bad drugs were, we hooted and got up and left. I’ve never had a friend or family member in the cult.

I know it weirds some people out, but sometimes, as crazy as it may seem, some people care enough to want to warn other people what the cult is about and the nastiness they’ve pulled. Sometimes, as insane as it may seem, the plights of others who were treated horribly or even killed, bothers other people. Sometimes, and this is REALLY going to sound loonytunes, the thought of a “church” bilking, scamming, blackmailing, and framing people/organizations/governments, and getting away with it time after time after time, is an affront to our sensibilities of decency and justice. I know this all sounds way out there, almost as bizarre as the Xenu story, but it’s true.

Ok, I don’t do sarcasm well. Simple answer (which, actually, was pretty much answered in my very first post to you CM), I care. Simple as that.

I don’t know anyone who’s involved in any way with the war in Iraq. Should I not care about that too? Does a person always have to be personally involved to care about something that’s hurting others? To read what this cult has done would, I would think, make anybody blanch.

A lot of the most important critics over the years never had any personal involvement. I’m not an important critic (I suck at it, actually), but I understand how they got involved. Some people see something terribly wrong and they want to try and do something about it. At the very least, to warn others what they might be getting invovled in.

[QUOTE=Constipated Mathematician]
As I’ve said, make your case in the courts and squash these people. Why is that an unreasonable proposition?
[/QUOTE]

Sigh. Yes it’s an unreasonable proposition. Are you saying that if I have gripes against the cult, that I should take them to court or shut up? Even some rudimentary research will show you that the cult uses the courts to bludgeon and bleed dry their critics. Even if I wanted my life to be ruined, which I don’t, I don’t have the several hundred thousand if not millions of dollars in legal fees it would take to take them on, and since I have no personal involvement, I have nothing to take them on with. The brave souls who HAVE taken the cult on in court earn my deepest and strongest admiration.

118

CM, I don’t especially care if you are or not a Scientologist. I gathered from this thread you might be, and, as I happened to read the threads relatively ‘together’, I stated as much, attempting to explain what I saw as your odd behavior… I still see it as odd, mind you… in a way that might give you some better answers.

Honestly, I think you’re lying about something, playing stupider than you are. Not much stupider, though. “Someone/thing named Xena” indeed.

That said, I accepted your protest in that thread at face value. And might I ask as to the sort of mathematician you are?

As for the other issue, more fiber. Fruits, whole wheat breads and pasta should help. Don’t overload on all-bran cereals, they tend to block vitamin asorption. Take it nice and slow, and everything should come out all right in the end.

119

[QUOTE=E-Sabbath]
Honestly, I think you’re lying about something, playing stupider than you are. Not much stupider, though. “Someone/thing named Xena” indeed.
[/QUOTE]

!! I missed that.

CM, all throughout this thread Xenu has been mentioned time and time again, with many many links. Are you really THAT lazy?

Come on, humor us. Type the word Xenu. Please.

Good links crowmanyclouds, thanks! Dave Touretzky was on Countdown with Keith Olbermann fairly recently (when the flap about the “silent birth” was raging). His interview is on Xenu TV.

120

[QUOTE=Equipoise]
CM, all throughout this thread Xenu has been mentioned time and time again, with many many links. Are you really THAT lazy?
[/QUOTE]

Not lazy, just relaxing