There’s an enormous difference between “simple plots” and “throwaway plots”.
Robb’s quest to become King? That could be considered simple. Guy tries, we watch, he fails, we’re sad. The world is affected.
Quentyn? Guy we know nothing about and care even less about travels across to marry a woman he’s never met. His reason for believing this could succeed was because of a contract written up by two people (one dead) that requires the participation of two other people (both dead). It was a long shot that fails. People who write about the Battle of Hastings don’t go into pages of detail on the shots that didn’t hit Harold.
As for playing the long con, the only characters who haven’t been are Ned, who was too honorable, and didn’t seem to even know there was a game going on, and Cersei, who can just barely play the short game.
I guess by this logic, anyone who ever tells the story of Harold is wasting her time, because Harold fails to stave off William. His story is a dead-end. Similarly, the story of Catelyn arresting Tyrion and the whole trial in the court of Lysa in the Vale is a dead-end, because Tyrion gets off. I don’t know why Martin bothered telling that tale at all!
ahem
I guess my take is that I’ll reserve judgment about the pointlessness of Quentyn’s plotline until the end. You might be right that it will have absolutely no effect on the world whatsoever, but Martin’s earned my benefit of the doubt, at least.
Harold had an effect on history. Tyrion’s abduction, even though he survived his trial, set off the entire Lannister/Stark war. It was the catalyst behind the entire main plot line of the series.
Still, by that point Tyrion had actually started getting interesting. Losing him would have been bad, from an enjoyment-of-reading point of view. If he had died, though, he still would have set off everything that happened, we just would have been robbed of a favorite character. Quentyn? Moron does something stupid and dies. Is Sunspear going to go after Dany? After the Harpies? Of course not. Quentyn’s version Tyrion’s plotline would be execution by Lysa followed by nobody really caring.
If you say so. I can confidently pronounce that Quentyn was completely pointless, if for no other reason than a seed buried that deep won’t come to fruition before Martin dies or gives up on the series.
I’m sure everyone has been waiting with bated breath for me to finish my reread and jump back into the fray. Well, it ain’t happening.
It turns out I’d rather reread almost anything else I own for the twentieth time than reread Dragons. It turns out I’d rather look for deep meaning in the microwave instructions on my vegetables than reread Dragons. It turns out I’d rather check out Louis L’Amour books from the library than reread Dragons. In fact, it turns out I’d rather not read than reread Dragons.
Victarion’s journey is nearly as pointless as Quentyn’s, if not even more so. At least Quentyn’s failure has ramifications back in Westeros because Doran had set a lot of wheels in motion with the idea that Quentyn would return home with dragons. But seriously, do we think Victarion has any chance of marrying Dany?
I wasn’t convinced by the Victarion chapters either. I’m definitely not one to scrutinise the plot in terms of how realistically the characters behave - verisimilitude or any of that bollox. But Iron Vic was a bit beyond the pale. Sail half way around the world (literally) with a fleet of 60 ships to claim Danaerys as your wife? On what basis man? Mix in the general peripheral-feeling of the Iron-born to what’s happening and it all felt half-arsed.
Reflecting on the book in general terms, I’m still broadly positive but the failure to conclude the Winterfell saga really boils my piss. Apart from feeling a bit let down as a reader, it seems like a structurally foolish thing to do for a lot of narrative voices in the book.
I think the flashback approach could be very effective in the right hands. Not having read any other GRRM I don’t know if those hands are his. It could have really deepened what is a somewhat straightforward series [SoIaF has some brilliantly subtle moments, but overall it’s pretty plain sailing].
At least Victarion is a badass. I didn’t care for Q, but I’m not really mad about it. I’m more upset with the Tyrion and Dany chapters. Fuck Mereen, seriously. Why the fuck would George think anybody cares at all what happens there? Or if we care what happens there, why would he think we care to hear the same fucking thin happening at court over and over again.
Nothing happened in the entire book. Nothing happened in my favorite series of all time for the past decade! ARGHHHHHH.
Having a 5 year skip didn’t work. Fine. How about just speeding these last two books up a little? Feast and ADWD could easily have been one book. If they had trimmed out filler, released both of them in 2006, and that was his 5-year gap book I’d be totally excited for the next one.
Making matters even worse, one of the reasons he kept pushing the release date for ADwD back is what he called “the Meereenese knot,” which I took to mean a really complicated situation with lots of plots and subplots, but ended up meaning a repetition of the same thing over and over again.
I think it’s pretty clear that he never really solved the timing and structure problems that the book presented, and eventually gave it up and published. He had to have been under massive pressure to do so, what with the TV series chugging along.
I assume the Meereenese Knot was originally the idea that Tyrion, Quentyn and Victarion would all arrive at approximately the same time, resulting in much conflict. Instead, he made Tyrion dance in circles throughout the book, killed Quentyn and tossed Victarion in as an aside.
The pace was slow and much was left unresolved (as usual), but I wouldn’t say nothing happened. Cersei’s downfall is on the fast track, for one. We found Bloodraven amongst the Children of the Forest. We got an interesting peak at Melisandre.
Has there been any mention at all of an estimated release date for the next book? I know that even if there was it would be subject to much delay, but I’m curious.
He has or something resembling it. He’s been on record saying that at least a few chapters from ADWD were cut and placed in Winds and vice-versa. I’m not even sure he “begins” or “finishes” writing anymore. It seems like a continuous process at this point.
The point of Tyrion’s, Quentyn’s, and Victarion’s PoV chapters here was, simply, to be the reader’s point-of-view onto events happening outside of the main action. Specifically, outside of Dany’s main action. They’re being shuffled around to show us the explanation behind what is going on in the Meereenese knot.
Quentyn’s PoV showed what was up with the merc companies. Tyrion’s showed the landscape and politics that Dany is dealing with. And Victarion’s prepared for what would have otherwise been the sudden and unexplained appearance of a viking fleet. It’s backstory, and character development, more than advancing the plot.
Tyrion’s PoV also introduced the Aegon Mummer’s Dragon storyline – one of the things Martin probably felt would have come out of left field had he gone ahead with the 5-year gap. As Quentyn’s explained why the dragons got loosed. And at least Victarion’s PoV finally got us a glimpse of Valyria.
But, overall, the point of Quentyn wasn’t that he was a feckless boy who stupidly died. The point was the stuff he saw while on his way to stupidly dying.
Really? I had figured out the way the sellswords are the first couple times they, you know, switched sides. You mean they’re not the reliable, honorable guys they could have been? Good thing we got a whole lot of pages making that clear!
I have been reading this discussion for a while but thought I would put my two cents in.
At the moment Victarion is a character with lots of potential to move the story.
A couple of indicators for this:
The egg that Balon threw into the water in the east
The dragon horn
being born of salt and fire (he has some sort of burning arm) and lives his life on the sea.
Any thoughts?
Victarion has potential with the horn, but he and the other Ironborn are so unlikeable that I just don’t see them doing anything. He had the horn at the end of AFFC and he has the horn again at the end of ADWD. Apparently he still hasn’t “claimed” it. My guess is he will, through some folly, deliver the horn to someone who can actually make use of it.