The death of a friendship.

Not quite twenty-five years ago, on the first day of freshman orientation in college, I made two friends: “John” and “Courtney.” John was one of my suitemates, a tall, lanky fellow from Minnesota or Wisconsin or some other place where it snows, and barely lasted one semester. Courtney was a petite blonde into whose pants John was desperate to get.

At first Courtney and I were only friends through John. Soon that changed. She wasn’t good at writing, so I found myself tutoring her through Freshman Comp; John, who had failed to get her on her back, suggested that I make her sleep with me in exchange for writing all her essays. This was a useful suggestion, as it informed me that John was a fucking creep whose company was best avoided. So Courtney & I both distanced outselves from him. We had a single class together: aerobics. One day we were side by side on the mat, doing pelvic thrusts, when the similarity of this exercise to a certain recreational activity occurred to both of us simultaneously, and we both dissolved into helpless laughter and got kicked out by the instructor. Childish, I know, but hey, we were kids.

Anyway, from that day forth we were best buds. Our friendship through college and beyond, much longer than any relationship any of us had for years. Around 19998 or so she moved cross country–partly for a job, partly for a guy–but that didn’t diminish the relationship; in fact, in some ways, it intensified it, as now we had to work at it more, decide whether it was worth continuing. And it was. In college she was my friend; afterwards she was my sister by another mother. Between '92 and 2008, there was literally not a week in which we didn’t speak on the phone. When she got engaged, I suspect she told me before anyone else; I know I told her first when I did. Between '92 and 2007 we had two major arguments. She exploded at me once for not taking proper care of my health, and I exploded at her for doing something reckless during a tornado.

But five years ago, things changed. Courtney started moving rightward, politically speaking, after she got married, and by the 2008 election, she hated the idea of Barack Obama becoming president; she called him an empty suit. Now I was fine with that–it’s not my job to tell her what to believe–but it still caused arguments; I was volunteering for the campaign, I donated money to the campaign, and she just felt that was wrong. Eventually we agreed to disagree on the issue, ruling that political discussions would henceforth not be allowed. But that was the first chink in our friendship armor. And the thing about armor is that once you damage it, once you establish a small weak point, that spot tends to spread and grow.

More chinks followed. They were more visible to her than to me, I think, because I honestly thought we were fine. But we stopped getting along so swimmingly. We stopped finding as much pleasure in one another’s company. This wasn’t because of our spouses, by the way; my wife & her husband still get along fine. But every time the four of us got together, there’d be more tension between me and Courtney, and no longer would she and I spend time alone. It was so subtle a thing that it was hard to notice. My little sister was first to comment on the difference in how we acted around one another. No more hugging, no more kisses on the forehead, no more physical closeness at all. Things accelerated after the baby was born; Courtney’s husband called to give his congratulations before she did.

Which brings us to this week. The weekly phone calls were long since a thing of the past – not because I’d stopped calling, but because she had. She’d stopped picking up as well. Saturday I decided to take the bull by the horns, so I sent an email asking what was her deal. She didn’t reply until today, and her reply was … odd. Cold, in a way she’s never been before. Being friends with me had become painful for her, she said, and she didn’t need any unnecessary pain in her life. If my wife and her husband wanted to remain friends, Courtney said, that was fine, but she was done with me.

So it hurts. Part of me feels that it shouldn’t, or that I shouldn’t let it. I have the most beautiful baby girl in the world, the most wonderful wife in the world, a great stepdaughter whom I’ll get to walk down the aisle next year, great sisters, and so on. My friendship with Courtney had been unraveling for years, and it’s not like she’s my only friend. But it still feels like somebody punched me in the throat.

I have an emotional pain metric. My son dying was 100; my mother dying was 95; my wife leaving me was 90; breaking up with my previous great love was about a 70. Giving up writing fiction was 75, as was getting fired in 2005 from the best job I’d had up to that time.

Losing Courtney is about a 65. I’d rather have the punch in the throat.

Sorry to hear that sad story.

But stuff like this is exactly why you don’t talk about “controversial” stuff like religion and politics or mac vs pc or the like.

Now if one party keeps spouting let’s say Fox News BS and they won’t shut up about it and you remain mum or try to change the subject to no avail and you just can’t take it anymore that’s one thing.

But, if you are an active part of the “lets debate controversial thing X”, and you BOTH don’t enjoy a spirited debate then change the subject or STFU.

I’m sure I could drive almost anybody I know crazy about how I was right about some thing X and they were wrong about it.

But I don’t. I find stuff we can politely debate or even better shit we can basically agree about and bitch about together or just stuff we are both interested in.

Wanna fight? Get online.

Wanna actually change things? Vote or write letters to senators congressmen or newspaper or whoever?

Want friends? Find some common ground to talk about.

Yes, that’s why they decided to stop talking about the political stuff.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the conservatism just got more conservative behind the scenes as the Obama administration went on, and that it grew into something that she couldn’t take.

Sorry to hear this. People do change through life, but they should remember more important things than their current political alignment. I can’t think of examples like that in my own life except when a spouse/SO enters the picture. Maybe you guys just need to let it all cool down for a while.

Do you think this is solely about politics? If so, it sounds like she has changed so much you may not even want her friendship anymore.

I had a similar thing happen to me, if you don’t mind me writing about it.

I met this very fun, nice couple in Colorado Springs when I was stationed there. Liked to drink beer, play sports, BBQ, camping, the usual stuff. We became very good friends, but as my political leanings started heading to the left the more I read and paid attention, theirs, and his especially, moved more to the right. A few intense discussions, a few tense truces, but we mostly kept that stuff to ourselves and were able to continue as friends.

I invited them to my wedding in 2005, but they begged off. Claiming scheduling conflicts. A few months after the ceremony, he confided after a few beers that he couldn’t stand the thought of me, an avowed atheist, marrying in a Catholic church. Called it hypocritical. Never mind that we were married in a chapel, in a non-denominational ceremony. He hadn’t even bothered to ask, just assumed. Then I was told that I should just stop inviting them over for BBQs or parties, because they weren’t’ going to come. Fine.

The relationship petered out, and I eventually moved away, and we haven’t’ talked at all, except at the untimely funeral for a friend where I got a handshake and barely muttered hello.

Its really sad when this happens. It’s like having a relationship fall apart.

Being a grownup sucks some times.

Sorry about your friendship.

People change, man; it’s nobody’s fault and there’s no stopping it.

Good luck.

Thanks for sharing this story with us, and sorry for the pain you’re going through. It’s almost too bad that you also couldn’t feel whatever disdain or dislike that she also felt for you. It’s just so, so hard when one person completely loses feelings of friendship, affection, whatever, for another person, and the other person still feels mostly good about things.

Politics has always been a sensitive subject, especially if there is any disagreement; in the last 20 years it’s become toxic beyond belief. I can’t think of anything that has so much impact on a friendship or other casual relationship, so fast and so deeply.

I hate it. I am about to wade neck-deep into small-town politics, and dread it. Not for the effort, or the good fights, or even losing… but because it will turn a certain subset of the town residents against me in bitter ways. I am so sick of this political climate… especially when I hear stories like yours.

Interesting and sad.

The first time I read this I read it as entirely being about politics. Re-reading it, you say it wasn’t - just after the first political ‘chink in the armor’ a lot of unspecified bad vibes increased.

It’s confusing when somebody just dislikes me more and more and I don’t know why.

I had this type of thing happen to 2 former friends of mine.

One was my college roommate. He studied computer engineering and was a die hard techie. Then he got married and they became very religious to the point of wearing their religion on their sleeves. I didn’t have a problem with that for a long time, but there were times where I was uncomfortable around him. Then last year, I called him up one day and he told me he was going to quit his electrical engineer job to be a “Christian Educator”. That was when he went crazy in my book. We remained friends on Facebook, but I have never called him since, and when we had, what I thought was a very civil argument on Facebook about whether or not the USA was a “Christian Nation”, he un-friended me and we haven’t spoke since.

The other was a magician friend of mine who I got to know pretty well over the past 7 years. In this case, I un-friended her on Facebook, and also deleted her phone number after a couple of very intense arguments about young earth creationism and ID. I kept pointing her to resources that showed her your young earth creationist views were simply wrong, but she wouldn’t let it go. So I told her I was done discussing it and I haven’t talked to her since. I just realized that while I have a pretty high tolerance for extreme evangelical Christianity, I don’t have any tolerance for willful stupidity and over the top preaching.

For both of these people, I worried about it for a couple of weeks, but I came to realize that it’s not my fault I don’t get along with them any more.

As someone who will be marrying someone of different religious and political views in A couple weeks, I do think it is possible to agree to disagree. Both people need to have some basic respect for each others views though. My SO knows that I have good reasons for my views and I know the same is true for him.
My in laws were almost intolerable during the election with some of the intellectually dishonest and polemical BS they posted on Facebook then but I even still like them. A lot of people have some dumb or crazy views if you dig deep enough. Just don’t go looking for it - and for Pete’s sake don’t try to argue over it. Like you really think you’ll change each others minds?

Lavenderviolet, I am impressed you can make a relationship with someone of opposing religious and political beliefs work. I used to think I could, but not longer in this age of extreme divisiveness. I see the other side as so absolutely wrong that I can’t possibly respect their beliefs nor put them out of my head. Those beliefs would define them as a person to me. It’s sad it has become that way for a lot of people.

Skald, I’m sorry.

Bolding mine.

And there you go. Democracy is great as long as everyone agrees totally about everything or something.

49 percent of the problem these days right there.

Pot, meet kettle.

I don’t think I am a hypocrite for being honest about this. Anyway, this thread isn’t about me.

I’m sorry; that really sucks. Losing a close friend like that, especially over something so mysterious, is a shitty experience.

That said:

Do you really have to rub your time-traveling shenigans in our faces at every opportunity?

You don’t think some of the “other side” thinks the exact same thing about you and that sort of thinking is EXACTLY the reason for all the ill feelings?

Yeah, its not about you. It about all the people on both sides that think like you.

Responding to LivingWell, not the post about time traveling :slight_smile:

What the fuck are you talking about?

Replying to Skald the Ryhmer (who by the way as a poster in general I like)

Living Well said this:

" I see the other side as so absolutely wrong that I can’t possibly respect their beliefs nor put them out of my head."

Can you not see that as a toxic position regarding pretty much any debate?

And, back to your problem with your friend and views on all things debatable. Can you not see that if either party holds a view like that or if both parties hold a view more like that rather than “lets agree to disagree and talk about something else” that obviously the friendship will die…

Because, you know, you see each other as mortal enemies or some such?