Myself, my wife, and our toddler son are soon to be at a decision point about where we want to live in the Denver region. We’ll be able to afford to live anyplace (within reason – we’d need a relatively cheap place in the expensive parts of town). [I should note that our commutes would be pretty similar whether we lived in the city or the suburbs]
Here are two categories of things that are important to us:
Category 1: Urban amenities
Lots of stuff to see and do within walking distance.
Close access to most of the rest of what we would need/want to minimize driving.
A good selection of cultural attractions – diverse & yummy restaurants, cool independent shops, people from all walks of life.
A neighborhood with a sense of character, history, and variety.
Easy access to public transport.
Category 2: Kid-friendliness
Reasonably high density of children.
Safe & good quality schools, ideally through high school so that our son can move through school with a common cohort of friends.
Amenable to kid freedom: safe streets, even at night, with slow-moving traffic.
Lots of parks, again safe & accessible.
The problem is that these two categories are, to some extent, mutually exclusive.
Category 1 stuff is really important to the adults in the family, both because these are things we love and because urban living is most consistent with our values: diversity, minimizing our ecological footprint, celebrating culture.
However, inner city areas tend to be far less kid-friendly than the 'burbs. The liveliness that we enjoy in a city translates to some potentially scary conditions for a little kid – traffic, sketchy characters, etc. It seems unlikely that we could give him the same freedom that we could in the suburbs, and I think freedom is an essential part of a happy life. And schools within the city are significantly worse, esp. at the high school level. I’m not sure I have the courage to leave him in a marginally-performing school, and placing him in private school would feel like a betrayal of the community that I want to support. Everyone tells me that it’s simply wrong to put your kid in a a so-so school when a good one is available, and I see the logic of this argument, though I’m not sure I agree completely.
I’d love to hear if you think we can have it all. Otherwise, have any of you faced a similar problem, and how have you solved it?
I think you’re defining “freedom” in a very narrow way (apparently as “freedom to play in the street”). As a 12 year old in NYC I could take the bus to the movies with my friends. My suburban pals were on house arrest unless their parents decided to drive them somewhere. Who had more “freedom?”
Well, if we were in the suburbs I’d make sure to at least be within kid biking distance to a mall – not a major cultural mecca, but it’s something.
However, I do think that liberty to run out the door and play through the neighborhood, or bike to your friend’s neighborhood next door, is more meaningful to a kid than having a range of available cultural attractions. Or to a young kid, anyway.
This gets at something I glossed over, which is that ‘kid’ covers a wide range of ages and needs. I think suburbs offer more freedom to young kids because it’s easier to loosen the leash at an early age in the suburbs. However, for early teens, cities are probably better because, as you point out, they can do more stuff despite not being able to drive.
And to clarify a bit more, I would define ‘freedom’ as freedom to leave the house without parental supervision.
Are there any interesting magnet schools in your area? These can be very good, and are often in urban areas. Also remember that the main reason why schools under perform are parents. Presumably you will be an involved parent, and that will make a far bigger difference than what particular school he goes to.
To me, it seems like suburbs are not the kid-centric paradises they were in the past. Even suburban kids are no longer playing freely on the streets, and stuff like walking to school doesn’t really happen that much anymore. Those suburban parks are likely to be ghost towns. You may even find a lot more kids playing outside in the cities, where there are fewer parents who subscribe to the playdate philosophy.
I think that the things you list in category 1 are not just important to adults, but also to kids. A kid growing up with those things is likely to value them later in life and perhaps be more well rounded.
My wife and I are currently having a discussion very near to this in our own lives. We’re trying to start a family and if we do, we need to decide if we will stay in DC or move to the suburbs. We’re leaning to staying in the city, but I understand the issues you describe. We’ve concluded that the city will take a little more work (or at least it seems like it will), but the payoff will be bigger.
Denver is a great example of a city with a vital “downtown.” It has all of the amenities you seek, and it is a fantastic place for adults. When my youngest is off to college (still a long way off) I plan on moving downtown. That said, Denver Public Schools are horrendous. I’ve had firsthand experience in the system and it is really bad - a huge number of students don’t even speak english and the ammount of money they have to spend on remedial and ESL programs means there is little spent for regular ed let alone for “gifted” kids. It truly is a nightmare.
If you can afford the tuition at Kent Denver then you’re fine, but I would sonsider it nearly a crime to send a kid of mine to DPS.
Don Cheadle,
Judy Collins,
Three members of Earth, Wind & Fire who were East Alumni were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Philip Bailey
Andrew Woolfolk
Larry Dunn
Douglas Fairbanks,
Pam Grier,
Hattie McDaniel
Jack Swigert
Joe Barry Carroll,
Neal Cassady
So, a 5/6 year can’t be left outside unsupervised anywhere, and by 12 an urban kid is perfectly capable of getting around their immediate neighborhood on their own (and take public transportation on familiar routes). So it’s really a span of maybe 6-7 years when the burbs have a “freedom” advantage, and an equal number of years when the city has the “freedom” advantage.
We went through a similar decision several years ago, and we chose the suburban option. It came down to what we thought was best for the kids. We live in an area where they walked to elementary school, they can ride their bikes to the pool in the summer, we do lots of the things that I keep reading “too bad you can’t do that anymore” like leaving doors unlocked and letting the kids play outside knowing that the parents for whichever yard they are in will keep an eye on them. We have room for the two big dogs. Our schools are rated the best in the state.
All that and we are still less than a half hour from professional sports, museums, the zoo, big buildings, and everything else that a mid sized city offers. Personally I think that it is more the parents that are interested in the Korean grocery around the corner and the Ethopian restaurant within walking distance. We can still take them to these places, just maybe in a car rather than walking.
I figure that when the kids are grown we may reconsider and move back to a more urban local, but for raising the kids we are happy with the decision we made.
I don’t think the suburbs are quite as bad as they’re made out to be – parks, libraries, and recreation centers are usually within easy reach, nice things for kids, and these places are definitely not ghost towns, at least during evenings and weekends.
But I also agree that the prevalence of kids out and about is becoming a thing of the past (mostly due, in my view, to the near-universality of two-working-parent families). And even the best suburbs can’t compare to city neighborhoods for character and cultural diversity.
Overall, the pro-city comments are definitely resonating with me. I’m just afraid I’ll chicken out because of all the pressure put on parents telling them to live in the 'burbs (Great schools! White – um I mean, safe!). Why do so many people move out of the city once they have kids? Can they all be wrong?
See, this is what I’m talking about. Can you imagine being told something this frightening about a decision you were making with your child? It’s not like I get a do-over if I make a mistake.
I’ll address one of your concerns about ethnic diversity and the suburbs being “white.” Most people would probably consider our area to be a “white” neighborhood, we are one of the minority in the fact that we are from the same state. There are many professionals who are recruited to our area and we have neighbors from all over Europe and Asia as well as from all over the US. No, it isn’t like where we have a “little Italy” or such, but we do have a lot of people who may look “white” but have a definitely different background than the typical midwest family. I don’t know if it is the same in the Denver area, but I imagine there must be similar places.
I also see there are responses that “kids don’t walk to school anymore”… all three of mind did from K to 5th. They don’t play outside unsupervised anymore… depends on how you define supervised… there is always someone close by, but not always right in the middle of things. There is always a game of something going on during good weather… basketball, soccer, lacrosse, hide the flag, street hocky, Calvin Ball, football, frisbee, whatever. You know where your kid is by listening for the sound of kids having fun.
Have you ever lived in the suburbs? ‘Cause your description sounds a little dreamy. Just sayin’.
Minding my own business now.
If you can find suburbs with public transportation that could be good. In my experience things are farther away in the burbs, and need a car to get to, and traffic is too heavy on the roads for bikes unless you live in a place with bike lanes.
We chose suburban. I still drive to the city weekly and think about how wonderful it would be to live there.
But nothing beats a real backyard, that is big enough to send the kids out to the swing set and enjoy ourselves and grow tomatoes and kick a soccer ball and to be able to feel safe napping on the grass while my kids get sun and fresh air. You can’t do all that even in the most wonderful urban park. You can do parts of each in different types of spaces (kick a ball in a public park, grow tomatoes in the public urban garden and so on) but you cannot do them all in one space that is right at your own house.
That may not be important to you. Or maybe at your price point you can get a great yard in the city, but here any city house with a backyard worth the name was 3X our price range. And we are not willing to compromise on having our own private outdoor space to enjoy.
Indeed, I grew up in a southern suburb of Denver. It had all the things I described (lots of parks, a library, a good recreation center) within biking distance. But anything resembling culture could only be accessed by car, and that made it pretty dull for a teenager.
The suburbs where I live now (Chapel Hill, NC) are much more isolating, and perhaps some of you are using a place like this as a model.
People did all of these things (except grow tomatoes) at the park one block from my apartment in Seattle. And the pleasure of having it be a communal space – and not having to own it or be responsible for maintaining it – made it way better than the big backyard I had as a kid, which was mostly used by our dogs.
Whatever, that’s all good. I’m not trying to convince you on the suburbs, you gotta figure that one out for yourself. But you asked what our reasoning is for where we live and I told you mine.
We chose the 'burbs for raising kids, and once they are raised will likely move back into the city.
Schools are a big part of it - although I have friends who send their kids to both Minneapolis and St. Paul schools with good luck.
Yard is part of it. I like having enough yard for a dog to run in, for the kids to play catch in. The park is a block away with playground equipment, but stepping out the front or bak door to play catch is nice.
Diversity is part of it - yes, diversity in the burbs. We have a lot of racial and economy diversity out here - and actually much more representative diversity than in the inner city - where white kids are under represented in a lot of schools and economically advantaged kids are almost non-existant. “Diversity” to me means going to school with kids who are white or rich, not just making sure that you have disadvantaged urban youth of color at your school. My kids get both.
Price was a HUGE part of it. Nice houses in the city with yards were WAY more expensive than similar sized houses in the burbs with yards. Anything we’d want to raise kids in was outside our price range - or involved far too much DIY for us.
The movie theatre and shopping mall and library are a bike ride away now the the kids are nine and ten - but we do have to drive for almost everything we do that isn’t a walk in the park or hanging out in the yard or seeing neighbors. But that isn’t that different than when I lived in South Minneapolis. We are actually only three miles out of downtown St. Paul (not that St. Paul has a vital city core or anything - they roll up the sidewalks after 6:00pm) - which is closer than a lot of city neighborhoods would be.
While it’s a cliche to bash the suburbs for being bland, a cultural wasteland, and entirely populated by white people, I wonder how true it is. Many of the suburb-bashers that I know actually come from the suburbs or at least live there for part of their lives. I don’t really agree that there’s a shortage of artistic or cultural opportunities in the 'burbs. I think that no matter where you live, your social life will be whatever you make of it, and this is true for a child as much as for an adult. Obviously suburbs will not have have the museums or opera houses, but you can find live music and theater if you’re willing to make the effort. On the issue of racial diversity I can’t speak about Denver, but here in Virginia the 'burbs include plenty of families from India, Korea, and the Muslim world.
Personally, I recently escaped from downtown Nashville to suburban Virginia. I’ve found many things that I appreciate about the switch, most notably (1) nobody playing loud rap music at 2:00 AM (2) almost no sirens during the nighttime (3) I can leave things outside without worrying that they’ll be stolen (4) I have a large yard that’s perfect for gardening (5) I can walk and bicycle without safety concerns, even at night (6) streets are in better repair (7) the general appearance of everything is cleaner and more inviting.
I’ve found that private schools are generally closer to the community than publics schools, if for no other reason than that private schools are smaller.