What are your opinions on the christian “end times”, i know this is vastly vague and there will be many different thoughts/answers but i was wondering your opinions? and do you think we are living in the “end times”?
IANAC, but people have saying “these are the end times” for a long, long time.
note If one uses acronymns that are not to common and/or I have not seen before please spell them out…unless that was an actual word… 
thanks.
It’s a very common acronym around here. I’d never seen it before either, though. “IANA” means “I am not a.” It’s always followed by something relevant to the post. Here, it’s “I am not a Christian.”
I think the whole ‘end times’/eschaton thing is a giant bunch of crap. There’s a reason the stuff is often called millennialism: people were saying “these are the end times” leading up to the year 1000. And really, they were saying it long before that, I’m sure, but it got very big in Europe around that time. After all, in the bible, Jesus apparently implies that those are the end times. :rolleyes:
(“IANAC” means “I Am Not a Christian.”)
**Mr. Blue Sky ** is entirely correct: the “end times” have been expected since the day Christ died. If I recall correctly, the apostles were working on the assumption that they’d be around to see Christ’s return. (There may even be a scripture to that effect: my fuzzy memory insists that one verse claims that there will be some who “stand here who will remain” until his return.)
A lot of Christians that I know work on the assumption that the end will be any day now. They point to wording in the scriptures that has “significance,” such as the verse which claims that the whole world will see the Antichrist for who he really is in one moment. Some Christians say that this proves that the End Times are upon us, because before the advent of satellite TV, such a thing was impossible. Thus, Jesus was just waiting for CNN.
Some Christians, though, say that the temple in Jerusalem must be rebuilt on the site currently occupied by a Muslim temple before Jesus can return, because one verse refers to him being in the temple after he comes back.
There are many differing beliefs on the subject.
Can you think of anything specific you might want to know? I can try to answer, but I can’t guarantee I’ll know the answer. Maybe GOM, His4ever, or another Christian can help out.
I hope so and think so, but, you never know.
Also, have you read any of the Bible? Like Daniel or Revelation?
What is your opinion?
I think “the end times” refers to a time in the future when it will be “as it was in the days of Noah” (I can’t remember the exact quote).
I think you’d have to be more specific. If your talking about modern fundamentalist eschatology, i.e., the “antichrist,” the “Rapture,” etc. that’s all really a pretty recent development. Revelation was actually all about Rome at the end of the first century. The “Beats” was the Emperor Dominitian. The “antichrist” is not found in Revelation but in the Epistles of John and is really a generic, descriptive term for apostates such as the Gnostics or for enemies of Christianity in general.
Daniel was written in the 2nd century BCE during the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus, It was a piece of apocalyptic literature set during the Babylonian exile. It used the Babylonian exile as a template for a message to Jews under the yoke of Antiochus. It predicted that, among other things, the Messiah would come and kill Antiochus before restoring Israel. Obviously, the Messiah never came (and Daniel set predicted that the Messiah would come three years after Antiochus had placed a statue of Zeuss in the temple) but Daniel became accepted as a more general prophesy of the Messiah and it became conflated with revelation and the antichrist to create the American eschtological view, largely during the 19th century.
It’s important to note that this whole “Late Great Planet Earth” scenario is far from a universal Christian view. The catholic Church, for example, does not expect the Beast of Revelation or the Rapture.
To be honest, the more common and more traditional Christian view is that Jesus will return but there won’t be any recognizable “end times.”
Pure ego. It there is an end time “I” must be in it. I am so important that even though people come and go every day the special time in which I live must be the real “end time”.
I don’t think a lot of folks want to believe that they will just die like everyone before them. This belief of the “end time” any moment now is just an attempt to rationalize that their life is in a special and unique time.
It seems strangely easy to convince large percentages of the population that “now is the time”. This has gone on since Christ died, and will probably continue all time to come.
Just my opinion.
Let me continue that passage in Matthew 24:
This is repeated in Luke 12, by the way.
I am a devout Episcopalian Christian, but I do not believe in the “end times” as they are depicted by modern American Christianity. In fact, I find Rapture theology pretty repulsive I’m afraid. I’m still working on the reasons why I react so strongly to it, but I suspect part of it comes from the fact that everyone I’ve seen who believes in the Rapture believes that they’re going to Heaven during it. I also have problems with what I see as the whole mean-spiritedness of it.
The passage from Matthew I just cited contains some of the rationale behind Rapture theology, as I understand it. From what I understand from HJay, there are also Post-Trib, Pre-Trib, and Mid-Trip schools of thought, which vary in when they thing the Rapture will occur in relation to other troubles known as “The Tribulation”. I’m hoping HJay or someone who knows more about this than I do will come along and explain it better.
I believe I do not know when the end times are coming, nor am I to worry about them exceptionally. What I mean by that is, if I behave in one specific way simply because I expect the world to end at any time now, I am misrepresenting myself. It would be the equivalent of redecorating my house in a style which doesn’t suit me before a big party. It may be elegant and what is expected of me, but it is not me. By the same token, if I profess my faith in Jesus or do good works simply because I expect Him to turn up on my doorstep any day now, that to me is very different from having faith and living in accordance with His Commandments because I believe that that is what He wants us to do and because it’s an extension of my faith. Does that make any sense? I do not know when Christ will return, nor does it matter. What matters is that I try to do His will in my life and serve Him as best I can. All else, in the end, is dust.
One other thing which might account for my reaction to end times theology is a few years ago, I was a Y2K expert. As a result, I got exposed to a lot of expectations about what would happen in 2000 and wound up looking into the history of end-of-the-world beliefs and debunking at least some expectations of what would happen on Jan. 1, 2000. Given that Christians have been expecting the world to end for 2000 years, if I do expect the world to end during my lifetime, I figure the odds of me being wrong are a lot greater than the odds of me being right!
CJ
So Siege, correct me if I’m wrong but it seems you accept this as a false prophesy of Jesus. Shouldn’t that place doubts on your Christianity?
It was a prophesy of Matthew, not Jesus. Most historical criticism reads Matthew’s “apocalyptic” prophesies as retrojected references to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans. It’s not regarded as original to Jesus.
They do regard as authentic Jesus’ statement that the “Kingdom of God is among (or within) you now,” which is a mystical and metaphorical statement, not a literal one.
The “Son of Man” in the sky stuff is from Daniel, who predicted that "One like a son of Adam (Adam means “man”) would appear and save Israel from Antiochus. “Son of Adam” (ben Adam) is a Hebrew colloquialism for “human being.” Daniel used it as a descriptive term for the Messiah, i.e. the Messiah would be human.
Matthew changed “son of man” from a generic destriptive term into a titular term designating the Messiah. (Matthew was Greek and may not have understood Hebrew/Aramaic idiom). Matthew put the “…this generation…” prophesy into Jesus’ mouth to reassure Christian Jews in the wake of the diaspora. It may not have come literally true, but it was Matthew’s prediction, not Jesus’.
Of course, the above is based on purely historical Biblical criticism. It’s not a “Christian” interpretation.
I am still unsure what i think about the end times. I am a christian, and i was mearly interested in what other people thought about the subject. I am always working on my faith and to try to dig deeper into things so i figure the best way to do so is to ask.
I like your plan there, Nomadic_One. May I suggest that you peruse www.belief.net to see what the different varieties of Christianity have to say there.
I try not to focus on the end times, for the same reason that I try not to focus on the beginning times. Or for that matter, heaven and hell. These are things that are unknown; even bible experts don’t know. So straining my brain over them is a waste of time.
“Each age is a dream that is dying, or one that is coming to birth…”
~ Arthur O’Shaugnessy
Jesus, in his Mt Olivet prophesy (Matthew 24, Mar 13, Luke 21), spoke of the “End of the Aion”, the Destruction of the Temple, and the Sign of His Presence- this all mainly came to pass in 78 AD when the Old Covenant Aion’s Priestly-Sacrificial system ended, revealing that Jesus was ascended in the Heavens as Lord & Savior & Judge. I do believe that prophecy has applications to every crisis time in history in which Christ’s people must face down AntiChrist enemies & natural disasters & societal upheaval, and will so down to the Final Conflict when Jesus appears personally to defeat the Final AntiChrist & to establish definitively His Earthly Reign.
The Roman Catholic Church does not teach the PreTrib Rapture or an Earthly Millenial Kingdom of Christ. She does however teach the coming of Jesus to defeat the final AntiChrist, to end this world & to establish the Eternal World. There is also some thought in the RCC to the building of a global Catholic Christian social order prior to Christ’s return, perhaps even as a counter-power to AntiChrist’s Empire.
I had been a gung-ho Rapturist in the 1970s when I was a teen. I technically now hold to a Rapture late in the Tribulation & Christ’s
Return to establish His Millenial Reign, however, I am far from settled on the issue. I’m also unsure about if these are the End Times but globalized communications, finance & politics coinciding with the restoration of national Israel is NOT insignificant to the discussion. However, I’d much rather consider how these might apply to building a Christian (Catholic-Orthodox-Reformed-Etc.) Social Order.
“Each age is a dream that is dying, or one that is coming to birth…”
~ Arthur O’Shaugnessy
Jesus, in his Mt Olivet prophesy (Matthew 24, Mar 13, Luke 21), spoke of the “End of the Aion”, the Destruction of the Temple, and the Sign of His Presence- this all mainly came to pass in 70 AD when the Old Covenant Aion’s Priestly-Sacrificial system ended, revealing that Jesus was ascended in the Heavens as Lord & Savior & Judge. I do believe that prophecy has applications to every crisis time in history in which Christ’s people must face down AntiChrist enemies & natural disasters & societal upheaval, and will so down to the Final Conflict when Jesus appears personally to defeat the Final AntiChrist & to establish definitively His Earthly Reign.
The Roman Catholic Church does not teach the PreTrib Rapture or an Earthly Millenial Kingdom of Christ. She does however teach the coming of Jesus to defeat the final AntiChrist, to end this world & to establish the Eternal World. There is also some thought in the RCC to the building of a global Catholic Christian social order prior to Christ’s return, perhaps even as a counter-power to AntiChrist’s Empire.
I had been a gung-ho Rapturist in the 1970s when I was a teen. I technically now hold to a Rapture late in the Tribulation & Christ’s
Return to establish His Millenial Reign, however, I am far from settled on the issue. I’m also unsure about if these are the End Times but globalized communications, finance & politics coinciding with the restoration of national Israel is NOT insignificant to the discussion. However, I’d much rather consider how these might apply to building a Christian (Catholic-Orthodox-Reformed-Etc.) Social Order.
Typically an eschatologically-oriented Evangelical can give you a very detailed scenario of what is supposed to happen when, much of it based on interpretation of symbolic language in the Biblical books of Daniel, I and II Thessalonians, II Peter, and Revelation. It’s important to note that it is interpretation – what Hal Lindsey or Kenneth Hagin think the third seal is supposed to mean is not necessarily what it was actually intended to mean. And, of course, there is a school of thought called Preterism that holds that all the “last days” prophecy was actually references to events during the Seleucid and Roman Empires and has nothing to do with the future.
Final observation:
That passage is from Eucharistic Prayer B in the Book of Common Prayer, translating the Apostolic Liturgy of Hippolytus, dated to about 110 A.D. We see nothing at all peculiar about regarding all time from the conception of Christ to the present and on into the future as long as God wills as being “these last days.”
Diogenes the Cynic:
It was a prophesy of Matthew, not Jesus. Most historical criticism reads Matthew’s “apocalyptic” prophesies as retrojected references to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans. It’s not regarded as original to Jesus.
That¡¦s a different framework for which my criticism is regarding. If you want to take it as Jesus being some guy who spouted off some philosophy and gathered a following before he got killed then I don’t have much of an argument with you. As such I would suspect that his prophesies would come true about as often as David Koresh’s. If however you are operating from the frame work of Jesus is god then I he should be held to a higher standard and as such all unfulfilled should if not be used as evidence for his status with the omniscient god being a little overstated.
They do regard as authentic Jesus’ statement that the “Kingdom of God is among (or within) you now,” which is a mystical and metaphorical statement, not a literal one.
Certainly worth giving up 10% of your income and premarital sex for.
Matthew changed “son of man” from a generic destriptive term into a titular term designating the Messiah. (Matthew was Greek and may not have understood Hebrew/Aramaic idiom). Matthew put the “…this generation…” prophesy into Jesus’ mouth to reassure Christian Jews in the wake of the diaspora. It may not have come literally true, but it was Matthew’s prediction, not Jesus’.
Apparently Luke made the same mistakes or maybe they both got it right and Jesus made the mistakes. As I have mentioned before. if it is the first case then we have little reason to think we know what Jesus actually said or did regarding any of this and little reason to trust in his godliness. If the latter then Jesus was in error and we also have little reason to trust in his godliness. Of course if you have established a closed system (I could name names;)) it does not matter a whit what the bible says.
Of course, the above is based on purely historical Biblical criticism. It’s not a “Christian” interpretation.
Yeah, I know and though I would be skeptical of anyone who didn’t place a whole lot of uncertainty from what the historical Jesus reportedly said or didn’t, it’s not the reference point I was debating.