Poly -
Your last post rocked, so anything I had to say now would pale in comparison. But for this:
I think I love ya, Poly. 
Poly
Thank you.
And to prove that even atheists can remind us theists of God’s word, we have Glitch’s post.
Yes, Glitch, we are all sinners. And no, there is not sin that is smaller or greater than any other sin.
That was precisely my point earlier. All sin is sin and God will handle the judgements of all sin. We should be more concerned with those things that harm people. Since homosexuality does not harm anyone outside of the relationship (and not inside as long as it is healthy) then it is none of our danged business.
Adam, let God handle it. It is not the governments job to legislate morality.
As an aside, what if Gov’t decided to outlaw hetersexual marriage or belief in God? Adam would you not fight to have your rights reinstated? I would prefer the gov’t to stay the heck out of my life.
Jeffery
orangecakes posted 02-29-2000 08:21 AM
We are discussing not just whether they have freedom but whether they should be deprived of that freedom.
Whatever :rolleyes:
Orangecakes posted 02-29-2000 09:02 AM
So, do you keep kosher?
ARG220
posted 02-29-2000 09:44 AM
Well, you said that homosexuals shouldn’t be given any freedoms and that we should not allow people to choose the “sin” of homosexuality. Sure sounds to me that you don’t think that homosexuals should have free will.
Polycarp posted 02-29-2000 11:32 AM
I disagree with that. Harassment is a form of discrimination.
{sniff} Poly, I love you. Again. 
Esprix
Ryan, No I don’t keep kosher. I meant that everything that was meant to be said was said. Of course theres the fact of new prophets, but this isn’t the thread for That!
I have never shouted at anyone or even told them homosexuality was a sin unless they were my friend and they brought up the subject. I don’t stand around preaching! 
orange,
When I brought the point up, I was relating it to the OP.(OT vs NT, word of God vs opinion of man) Ryan, thanks for noticing, was beginning to think nobody read my posts! :)( I did see your comment ARG, so I know you did!)
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
From the other Homosexuality thread:
What wonderful ethical insight!
Poly -
Thank you so much for your eloquent post. You are my hero!
Poly - Maybe we’ll agree to disagree, but wierddave specifically asked for NT references to homosexuality. As far as I know, there are only two, Romans 1:26-27 and I Corinthians 6:9-10. Neither reflect homosexuality in a good light. I tend to believe that practices mentioned only in a bad light are frowned upon. YMMV.
Of course it was punishment. Do you know of any instance where a person or group were divinely punished by being “given over” to a “good thing”? The very fact that Paul clearly states that this was punishment tells me that it is not something to be condoned.
Of course, you also state “If you read that in context, not interpreting but just looking at Paul’s words…” and then procede to interpret out the proverbial wazoo. You can’t have it both ways.
I beg to differ. I did not render “homosexual offenders”, the translators of the New International Version did. the NASB says “…effiminate, nor homosexuals,…”; the RSV “…sexual perverts…”; the KJV “…effiminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind…”; Darby “…nor those who make women of themselves, nor those who abuse themselves with men…”; and YLT “…effiminate, nor sodomites…”. The RSV rendering could, I suppose, be construed as the promiscuous use others for sexual pleasure, but you’d be hard pressed to get that from the others. I found no version or translation that renders “homosexual aggressors”. Not that there is not one, but it ain’t in my collection.
There is no place in the Bible, OT or NT, where homosexual activity is mentioned as a “good thing”. There are several places in each testament where it is mentioned negatively. From that I draw my conclusion.
Again, weirddave was looking for NT references. I understand that Jesus was addressing the Pharisees about a specific question (divorce), however, in doing so he quoted Genesis 2:24, which established marriage as a “good thing” in God’s eyes. My point was, although the one man, one woman marriage covenant was established in the OT, the fact that Jesus used the verse to answer a NT marriage question makes it valid today.
Agreed, wholeheartedly. One cannot, by definition, be forced into faith. But assuming we vote in accordance with our ethical and moral views, aren’t we all trying to put people in office who will reflect those same views? Isn’t that, in theory, enforcing the moral code of the majority upon all others?
Agreed, again. But the government, being made up of humans voted in by the majority, and humans being what they are, I doubt it will ever be more than a good theory. Reality will continue to to bite.
Doc,
Thank you for the cites. Those were indeed the passages I was refering to. When I made the original post, It was late and I was too tired to go look them up. I would also note that you confirmed that they were from letters Paul wrote to the early churches. My earlier comments refer to the issue of same sex marriages in a religious context. I think that pre marital homosexuality should be treated the same as pre marital heterosexuality, acording to your specific beliefs. I can find no references in the NT condeming comitted, loving, monogamous homosexual relationships (marriages). Since God created man( acording to christian mythology ) and some men ( and women ) are created homosexual, I do not see why God would condem such unions.
BTW, I have no wish to offend anyone, so substitute theology for mythology above if you like.
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Thank you very much for my quote Libertarian. I posted it on http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001346-2.html and said I would post something here later. I should probably cut and paste the rest in here because I believe I set a context that would be applicable.
I said, “OK, pedophilia is not a decent analogy to homosexuality or homosexual acts because pedophilia involves having sex with someone who can’t really give consent or even, necessarily, know the consequences of their actions. There may also be coercive method involved. Pedophilia is more akin to rape because of the above reasons. To take from someone who can’t give consent is still stealing. To have sex with someone who can’t consent is still rape. Gay sex is now basically a consentual action between like-minded individuals. The worn and used lawnmower analogy (from another thread) is on equal par to the pedophilia analogy. Again, homosexuality for the most part (I will talk of prison homosexuality later) by in large consists of people with mutual attraction and consent doing what they believe/feel/know (etc) is true and right.
Now for prison sex. Prison sex is more akin to pedophilia than homosexuality. The only similarity between prison sex and homosexuality is that it is done between two or more men. I say it is more akin to pedophilia because there is a coercive technique that forces the submissive person to put out or die. You can find more information at Stop Prison Rapes about this issue. Rape is never consentual. By definition, if rape was consentual then it is no longer rape. Again, the lack of consentuality makes this act more akin to pedophilia because it is done by force/coercian/nonconsentually and not by the desires of all the parties involved.”
HUGS again,
Sqrl
Well, I’ll be my UBB coding didn’t transfer over. Well, here is the link again. http://www.igc.apc.org/spr/ talks about prisoners and the ideology from the standpoint of sex behind bars.
HUGS!
Sqrl
So laws designed to give women (including lesbians) freedom from rape are bad laws? Laws which grant the freedom to vote to people of color (including those who are gay) are bad laws?
The USSC ruled in Bowers v Hardwick that homosexuals do not have a right to privacy, including the right to have private consensual sex.
Really? When I was fired for being gay a few years ago, that wasn’t discrimination?
Tell that to the Mormons.
The idea being that they are being turned from what is natural for them to what is unnatural for them.
1 Samuel 18:1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
2 And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father’s house.
3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.
Did anyone ask Jesus about SSM?
Well…a doe-see-doe, and away we go.
Lib: I do not know what you believe in, or what type of Christianity you follow. But, you have shown time and again that we may not even be in the same ballpark, as far as our beliefs go. You judged me as well, even though you don’t know me. And all this came during s little sermon about how we should not judge people. I think your post was hypocritical.
Poly: Check this out: (Bolding mine)
Do you see the sin? All the bold words describe the evil that these people who involved in. It doesn’t matter the reason they were commiting these acts. The acts themselves are described quite vivdly, as sinful, degrading, lustful, unnatural perversions. And, all of it decribes homosexuality. I do not see how it can be clearer than that.
Now Poly, you invoked the name of our God, to rebuke me? Wow. You said:
Honestly, I’m not sure what to say. I just reread all my posts in this thread, and I can’t find one place where I sinned. The only place that I need to apologize for is where I said that it is nice to see through the eyes of God. That was prideful, and even though I DO want to see the world through the eyes of Jesus, it’s just not a reality. I can look at His Word, and see how He would judge something. But, I am not God. So, I’m sorry for that remark.
Glitch: I believe in the family. A mother, father, and child. Now, of course, there are a million variations of this. I do not see a problem with two brothers raising a child. Or two sisters. Or two grandparents. Whichever. BUT, when two people are living in sin, i.e. homosexuality, I feel very strongly that a child should not live in a sinful environment. When children are adopted, the couple is screened(as you know). I think that a same sex couple should be ineligible to adopt, because of their lifestyle.
Phouka: I’d rather have you live, and experience the love of God, than die, and never know what true love is.
Esprix: How would the sin of homosexuality harm me? Well, as I said before, sin hurts people. I do not know how, and may never know how it could directly hurt me. But, the presence of sin, any sin, has a negative effect on society. Just look around you for an example of that.
Flinx:
I do not think you should be allowed to marry a man Bill. Or, adopt a child, while in a same sex relationship.
When it comes down to the nitty gritty, we go back to the issue of the separation of church and state. And by golly, I don’t want to touch that with a ten foot pole. I have NO desire to get involved in politics either. But, my beliefs on what laws should be passed, or allowed to pass stand. And my belief that homosexuality is sin, still stands as well.
The bottom line: Stop the hate. Calm the fear. We are so used to homophobes that I’ll bet some of you think I am one. (Obviously, I’m not) Instead of laws being passed to stop gay marriage, I’d actually rather see time and energy spent on educating people on what it means to be homosexual. And that most of those people came from hurting relationships, or broken, and abusive families. (sorry, don’t have a site for that, but I know that the percentage of gays who come from those types of relationships is quite high) If we could learn, and stop the pain, stop the fear, then this thread would not even be here. It would not even be an issue. If every Christian were to minister to a person, a hurting person…imagine what could be done.
Adam
“Life is hard…but God is good”
ARG220:
If you walk like a homophobe and quack like a homophobe . . .
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
Oh, and while I’m here:
“I don’t have a cite, but I know it’s true,” is the statement of a closed mind. It is also antithetical to the very premise of “The Straight Dope”. Have you ever actually read the columns, or do you just come to the mesage board?
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
But all environments are by definition sinful since all people and hence ALL couples are sinners. What you are saying is that the sin of homosexuality is a worse sin when it comes to raising children than any other sin? Now, why is that? Facts is facts. You my friend are a sinner. If you are married your wife is a sinner too. I don’t know what your sins are but you got 'em. Maybe you’re a liar. Maybe you bear false witness. Maybe you are greedy. Don’t know … doesn’t matter. Whatever your sins are the children you raise will be brought up in that sinful environment. My understanding is that all sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord (except some argue blasphemy against the Lord which is unpardonable). So, why do you set up this hierarchy of sin? Where do you draw the line? Which sins are okay but which sins are not okay? Heck, homosexuality isn’t even the ONE unpardonable sin!
Spiritus: I do not hate homosexuals. I do not fear them. On the contrary, I’ve witnessed to them, shared God’s love with them, and befriended them. (On more than one occasion) I know what it is to truly love the sinner, but hate the sin. And, I will do my best to find information to back up what I said. If I can’t find the info, then I’m sure someone else can.
Glitch: Yes, I am a sinner. And my future wife will be one. One sin is not greater than the other. I’d not want a child to be in the home of drug users, or rapists, or murderers, or thieves…etc…etc. But, the thread is about homosexuality. That is what I’m focusing on. Besides, someone who lives that sort of lifestyle is willfully sinning, and not repenting. They may not know, or agree that it’s sin, and that is an even greater shame. My home may be one run by “sinners,” but (in the words of Joshua) “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
“Life is hard…but God is good”
So, ARG220, are you saying that a child should not live in the home of any sinner?
Should a liar be able to adopt a child? An atheist? A muslim? A glutton? A lazy person?
Who should be eligible to have children?