Well, Polycarp, I hate to give my research technique. But, http://bible.gospelcom.net/
Seems like a fairly straight forward site. That is, I haven’t noticed an axe being ground.
Just type in “David exceeded” and search all versions. I actually only searched KJV since I suspected that was whence it was quoted.
Tinker
Phouka: I had to look in my exhaustive concordance, since I only use the NIV, and it does not use the word “witch.” The verse you are refering to is Exodus 22:18. “Do not allow a sorceress to live.”
This verse is found in a section of the Bible, where God is laying down some very detailed laws for the Israelites. Luckily, we are not bound by these laws any longer. (Partly because I just don’t have any oxen, or sheep, and mostly because the blood of Jesus ushered in the New Covenant.) If we were, we’d ALL be dead by now. BTW, I most certainly am NOT one of those people who thinks that one translation is the “best.” I’ve said this in various other threads also. I just happen to like the NIV better.
I hope I’ve answered your question for you. If not, let me know, and I’ll try again.
Poly: I don’t have a specific ministry to gays. I’m not part of an organization who specializes in ministering to the homosexual community. Just want to make that clearer.
And, I am fully capable of loving the sinner. When I witness to somebody, it’s not, “You’re a smoker, you need Jesus,” Or, “You’re a thief, you need Jesus.” I simply see them as a lost soul. Sure, there are different techniques used when speaking to different people, but they are all in need of God, and His Son. I think you see my point in this.
It is changeable. With God, anything is possible.
I do not support anyone who preaches hate in the name of Jesus. I have not judged anyone. You may see my posts as being judgemental. You are mistaken. Saying that a sinner is guilty of his sin is not being judgmental. Expressing my beliefs about same sex marriage, and gays adopting children is not being judgmental. I’m surprised at you Poly.
“Life is hard…but God is good”
That’s it, Otto, thanks.
Dang, it does say you can’t play football. The whole pig is, appearantly, unclean. Or maybe just that one part of the “dead carcase” gets dispensation. 
That was not funny! 
Peace,
mangeorge
Poly, you said:
If I were to entertain thoughts, of lying to my friend, is that not sin? Would Jesus approve of me, plotting to deceive? No. It is not holiness. Anything less than holiness is sin. Anything less than perfection, is sin.
Now, taking that into account, I believe that any form of homosexuality is wrong. From the actual physical nature, and sexual nature, to the young boy who thinks he might like that other boy, in a romantic way.
In any way, shape or form, homosexuality is an unnatural thing. It is not the way that God, who first created a man and a woman, intended us to be. That is the bottom line.
“Life is hard…but God is good”
ARG said:
I’m curious then ARG, since it has been proven that Homosexuality is a geneticly linked trait, like the color of ones skin or eye or being left handed,Who do you believe created mankind?( and by extention, his genetic code?)
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Weirddave: I’d like to see the study that proves homosexuality is genetic.
Even if it is genetic, then it’s still wrong. There is no justifying sin. God can change the mindset of a person. Read the testimony of Dennis Jernigan at www.dennisjernigan.com He was a homosexual who became a Christian, and was “set free” from homosexuality. (In his own words) He’s been married for 17 years now, and has 9 children. He is a powerful witness for God, and he expresses it through beautiful songs of praise and worship.
My point is that God can, and does reverse that desire that you may think is genetic, in a gay person’s mind. (I’m sorry, if you are offended by the word “gay,” homosexual is just too long to type out a million times)Nothing is impossible for Him.
“Life is hard…but God is good”
I know others will respond to this better than I can but:
ARG:
Oh wait, it’s not even worth a response.
Back to your regular programming.
Humans are, by their very nature, supposed to be sinful. We are born into sin. It may not exactly be “genetic,” but it is what we are. In spite of this, we can strive to overcome the sin in our lives, through the power of Jesus.
This is what I meant by, “Even if it is genetic, then it’s still wrong.” We do not need to act upon, or entertain unholy thoughts. This applies to all sin, no matter how big or small.
I think I need to say this to everyone: Earlier I said that many gays came from abusive, or broken homes. I have not been able to find out any information to support, or contradict this. Now, I want to make clear that I do not believe that this is the main cause of homosexuality. I still would like to see if someone knows of a stat that shows what percentage of gays and lesbians came from those types of relationships. It would be very helpful.
I hope that I have shared my beliefs in a way that is not offensive to any body. I realize they are strong, but I base them on God’s Word.
Adam
If we may diverge from the religion arguments a moment, (oh, me achin’ 'ead…) I would like us to agree that ethics is not wholly defined by man’s relation with God. It is also defined by man’s relation with his fellow man.
While it might be true (and it might not) that God condemns homosexuals, what about the civic relation? Why should a government prohibit sin? And why should it prohibit one, or a few, but not all? Why should women be allowed to flaunt their hair in a church while men can’t poke things up their ass?
If a man is peaceful and honest, why the hell can’t you leave him alone?
There isn’t one. According to the experts (the American Psychological Association among them), it is a complex combination of nature and nurture - biology, sociology, environment, genetics, chemistry, etc., something that is too complex to understand, determined at too young and age, and something that cannot be changed (ex-gay ministries’ efforts included).
A bad way of putting a tired old argument - “You can fight genetic disposition with God’s help.” You believe God gave it as a challenge, I believe God gave it as a gift. Neither of our beliefs will change. Stalemate.
I could become Christian, marry a woman and father children, too - it wouldn’t make me any less homosexual.
Esprix
Adam, I apologize for what I’m certain you took as a flame. No, I don’t consider you judgmental for having opinions and for believing things to be sinful. However, I can see we are not anywhere near the same wavelength on this issue. Let me try to make a few brief points, and see where we go with them. Feel free to disagree with them as you see fit.
The Bible contains apparent contradictions. Classic example is Simon Peter and the sheetful of animals – if Chaim had been present at the time, he would no doubt have guided Peter as to what was kosher and what was not. Peter is told to “take and eat” of all the creatures.
We are given a very clear, if supernally difficult, guideline on how to interpret Scripture: Jesus’s answer to which commandment is first. Every act is to be judged (by its doer) on whether it is in accord with total, radical love for God and love for one’s fellow man. Whatever meets these criteria is ethical; whatever does not is sinful. Regardless of whether the first is forbidden by a strict reading of the Law and the second commanded by it.
Therefore nothing except total rejection of God is ipso facto sinful. Many things are likely to be sins under any reasonable set of circumstances. Even my hypertrophied hypothesis-generator quails at trying to invent a scenario where genocide is ethical.
“All things are lawful to me, but not all things are expedient.” Paul’s clear statement of the idea that 99.44% of the time, following the traditional moral code is the right judgment on what is ethical.
We are called not to stand in judgment over the deeds of others, but rather over those of our own selves.
There is positively no Scriptural warrant for a Christian to seek to mandate his moral code on others. To take a different but also controversial issue, I am anti-abortion but pro-choice. Does that sound contradictory? It’s not: while I personally don’t believe in having an abortion, I am not prepared to ram my beliefs down the throat of a girl deciding what to do with the baby she is carrying. I’ll help her, counsel her, direct her to whatever help she needs, let her know how I feel about the issue, but the decision is hers. I have never been pregnant, and I have no clue how it feels to walk in her shoes.
Now, down to the issue at hand. It is my feeling from a reading of Scripture that God is far more interested in human hearts turning to Him and in His justice being done (and not what some self-righteous clown with a pulpit may think is God supporting his own personal prejudices) than He is in what you do with His gift of your body. It took me a long hard struggle to come to terms with my own sexuality, thanks to the sort of pseudo-theology that condemns every impulse outside marriage, and I don’t want to see that kind of garbage dumped on anyone else. You and I claim to believe in a good, loving God who wants the best for His children and calls them to Him, but whenever you post on specifics you keep sounding like you believe in the god that slythe rightfully rejects as a psychotic tyrant. Yes, sin exists. But “this is my Father’s world” – Satan is not in charge, God is. And your task (and mine) is not to blanket-charge every act as sin, but to help lead each lost sheep back to the Shepherd.
One final point: there is Scriptural warrant for fasting, refraining from food (or from specific foods) for a time (usually one day) to the glory of God. Analogize the appetites for sex and for food. By your ethical standards, you would be completely within your rights to say to a homosexual, “you must maintain a lifelong fast, because to nourish your particular appetite is sinful. And you must try even not to think of food.” But by your posts on homosexuality you have gone one step further and said, “In addition, it is a sin to be hungry.”
I reserve judgment on whether gays can change. I have heard, as have you, of ex-gay “success stories.” I have heard of “total failures” by that standard. Gaudere posted some information some time ago indicating that the “failure rate” is very high. My phrasing was quite careful: “not generally changeable” for that very reason. I do not doubt that you have faith. But if I were to drive out and visit you, I think I’d prepare to cross the Rockies in New Mexico, rather than expect that you have moved them as Jesus indicated you would. Which is sarcastic for, if it’s possible at all, it’s a long, hard road. Don’t throw off lightly “with God all things are possible” regarding someone else’s concerns. While it is the truth, it does not state the clear fact that long and arduous effort without any certainty of success is a prerequisite.
Does this answer your concerns?
Arg
Then it’s possible that homosexuality is not a sin.
Arg again
Are you, then retracting the statement as it is unsupported by any evidence?
Arg
Then it’s possible that homosexuality is not a sin.
Arg again
Are you, then retracting the statement as it is unsupported by any evidence?
ARG220;
I don’t know Mr. Jernigan, and wouldn’t presume to know his mind.
So let’s say there’s another man who, like Mr. Jernigan, was a homosexual who became a Christian, and was “set free” from homosexuality. (In his own words) He’s been married for 17 years now, and has 9 children. He is a powerful witness for God, and he expresses it through beautiful songs of praise and worship.
But who, during those 17 years of his marraige and while fathering his 9 children, was fantasizing about Mel Gibson. Would that have been sinful?
Being gay doesn’t make a man impotent with women or infertle.
Peace,
mangeorge
Lib:
It should. Or, at least, in a perfect world, it should. But that won’t happen until God reigns on earth.
My my Lib. Such language. As I mentioned, our laws should mirror God’s.
Leave him alone? Does being peaceful and honest make one a Christian? Now, I know you and I share very different ideas about what being Christian means. But, I’d rather not take God out of any equation. I’d rather minister to a person who does not know Jesus, even if they are “peaceful, and honest.”
Otto: I am not lying when I said I read somewhere that said the a high percentage of gays come from broken relationships. If evidence against this is shown, I will have no problem understanding, and accepting it. Until then, I still think it’s true.
Esprix: I do not believe that God gave homosexuality as a “challenge.” I do not know why it exists, and apparently, neither do the “experts.”
It wouldn’t? Could you please explain that? Perhaps you don’t believe that God can literaly change your mind. He’d take away those desires you have now. If you were a Christian, and hopefully loving God, and your wife, then there’d be no room for attraction to men. It would just not be a part of you anymore. Do you see what I’m saying? If not, let me know.
Now, Poly: I know it’ll take me longest to respond to your post. First of all, I did not see your posts as flames. I just do not agree with you, and think you went over the line by saying I should repent. Really, there was no harm done, and I apologize myself for my attitude towards you. It may not have been evident in the posts, but it was in my heart. I’m sorry for that. Let’s move on.
Hmm? I fear we totally disagree on this Poly.
Again…no. I have not ever found this to be true. How then, would you interpret the Ten Commandments? What if one of them was broken, while under this assumption that the person is radically in love with God, and his fellow man? Besides, we are not the Judge. HE is the judge. He gives the standard.
We are called, however, to help our fellow man. This is what’s right. If someone is in sin, and they do not know it, is it not up to us to point them in the right path? Does God have to do everything for Himself? No. If my brother is involved in sin, then it is my responibility as a member of the family of God to tell him about it, in love. Not being judgemental, but saying it as Jesus would have said it. There is Scriptural basis for this.
Ultimately, yes. It is her choice. But, I would hope, and pray that she’d make the right choice. Hint, hint.
Yes, and sin, is sin. Let’s examine this scenario: I am witnessing to a heathen. He doesn’t know God from Satan, good from evil. I tell him that Jesus can come into his life, and love him, be with him, and forgive his sins. He says, “What sin? I have no sin.” So, I dig out my Bible, and point out hundreds of Scriptures that outline dozens of specific sins. I am allowing him to see that there is, in fact, sin present in his life. Have I been judgemental? No. I have shown him God’s teachings, and His commands. Sometimes, specifics must be pointed out.
Yes. It is a sin for them to be hungry. Those thoughts are not from God. And they can be stopped.
“Life is hard…but God is good”
Mangeorge:
I know. I didn’t imply that I thought it did. I said that he had 9 kids because…well…it’s just a little tid-bit about his new life.
If a man like Dennis had that thought about Mel Gibson, of course it’d be sin. And it would be sin for me to fantasize about another woman if I were married. What kind of committment is that, where I’d want to do anything with another woman?
And I remember reading somewhere that green M&Ms make you horny and that drinking Coca-cola and aspirin will get you high and that Mikey from the Life cereal commercial died after eating Pop-Rocks. But let’s assume for a moment that you actually did read this somewhere and it was the result of an actual scientifically valid study (as opposed to circumstantial evidence or the bleatings of a religious right fanatic group). So what? So what if a majority of gay people have divorced or abusive parents? What do you think that proves? Correlation doesn’t imply causation, so such a stat is an argument neither against divorce nor homosexuality (abuse always being bad regardless of the outcome). Over 50% of all heterosexual marriages end in divorce; marriage must be a pretty bad thing if it leads to such misery. With that number of divorces, lots of str8 kids come from “broken homes” (I hate that phrase) too.
Feel free to repeat to me endlessly what Jesus said about homosexuality. because then you’ll be quiet.
Excuse me? It’s a sin of the hungry person to be hungry?
Otto: At this point, after reading many studies, from many websites, I’ve learned much about homosexuality. I was not ignorant before, but I know even more now. Which, is good. If I find that what I read is still true, then it would not neccesarily prove anything. We’ve already shown that anyone can be gay. Regardless of their background. I just want to know if I was right, or wrong.
I didn’t say that Jesus spoke about homosexuality. In fact, I was talking about sin in general, in that paragraph you quoted me from. I meant, that I would speak the truth in love, with as little negative attitude as humanly possible. You know…act like Jesus.
Did you read the context of that sentence? I said it because Poly was substituting food, for the desires of homosexuality. Yes, I believe that those desires are sinful. Just so you don’t think I’m picking and chosing, I think that heterosexual fantasies, and sexual thoughts are sinful as well. I believe a Christian should keep as pure a mind as possible. You could say, that I’m “fasting” until marriage.
“Life is hard…but God is good”
Otto said:
You hear this “ststistic” a lot, but the fact is that it is simply not true, or more precisely, not true as stated. The actual ststistic is that each year, there are half as many divorces as marriages. It does not mean that of everyone who gets married in a specific year, half of them will divirce. I trust that everyone can see the distinction, I’m just pointing it out. If you can’t, ask and I’ll elaborate.
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
ARG
And which studies on which websites would those be?
So why bring it up in the first place? “Oh gee, I read that most homosexuals are the product of broken relationships, and I don’t much care for either homosexuals or broken homes, but I’m not trying to link those two things in anyone’s mind or anything.” Please.
Gosh, if was as big a deal as some Xian folk make it out to be, you’d think it might have been mentioned in the words delivered directly from God and/or Jesus…
I’m aware of that. Homosexuality is not a sin.
Jeez, whatever. This is what drives me batty about Xians. They spend so much time worrying about controlling random sex fantasies, then they publish truly prurient descriptions of what gay people supposedly do in the rack.
BTW, ARG? Whatever you do, don’t think about burying your face between the supple breasts of a beautiful woman.
SINNER!