The finality of death

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

As an atheist, i believe death leads to the same state as dreamless sleep or pre-existence. i.e., nothingness. Since our minds seem to be based on some desire for continuity & meaning, this issue is somewhat hard to come to grips with. How can someone accept such a premise w/o feeling life has no value? Is this belief that death leads to nothingness intentionally built into our minds to serve some purpose or is it just a consequence of reasoning?

This thread reopened this issue for me Damn. I thought i’d come to grips with it.

2

I don’t know that all people automatically believe that death leads to nothingness is true. I’m not sure I understand your problem. What is it that you are trying to come to grips with, that you are now having a problem with?

3

Some atheists can be very “spiritual.” They place a lot of value on life. No, I don’t have a cite.

4

Just the principle that continuity of consciousness seems to be necessary for life to have meaning. If the mind ends, then continuity ends, then meaning ends which creates a dichotomy (i love using complex sentences when i’m drunk) between meaning & meaninglessness.

5

I saw this movie one time where this one guy totally killed the other using only a pin. I think it was called “The Kung Fu Pin Fighter of Extraordinary Power”. I think it serves as a metaphor for your situation that could guide you on your quest.

If not, then I present this conundrum: Who cares?

6

you replied didn’t you?

7

I’ve had these exact same thoughts and feelings. Although I don’t like it, I’m of the opinion that nihilism is the only rational conclusion to an atheistic/humanistic outlook on life.

8

As a roommate of mine said once, “To say ‘I am afraid of death’ is to use a verb with no object.”

The existence of the noun “death” is a linguistic fiction that lets us think of death as a condition. Death is not a condition; death is the absence of all conditions. (Yes, one might reply, “Except the condition of being dead,” but that’s still using the above fallacy, which asserts that death is something when it is not.)

Death is the absence of existence. To dread death assumes that there will be some consciousness of it involved, since we are able through verbal constructs to say things like “when I am dead.” But “when I am dead” is not congruent to “when I am old” or “when I am tired” or “when I am asleep” or some other construct, because “dead” is not an adjective in the sense that “old,” “tired,” or “asleep” is an adjective. To say “When I am dead” is like saying “When 2 + 2 = 1,729.”

I don’t fear death. I fear the few moments right before death when I know it is inevitable, and I’ll think to myself, “Who will win the Series this year? I want to go to my friend’s wedding in October! Damn, I wish I hadn’t spent so much time on the computer!” or whatever. Death in itself is not a thing to be feared; the pleasures of life we may miss out on are disheartening, but think of all the pleasures you’ve had; let’s not be greedy.

I hope that, when I know for a certainty that death is coming very soon, I can look back at my existence and believe that the world is at least a slightly better place for my having been here.

The idea that this one life is all we have is kind of awful when one has always vaguely assumed an afterlife, but it’s also invigorating; it is time, RIGHT NOW, to get busy and make things happen.

I hope I’ve helped this discussion; I apologize for my rambling, and also for what, on preview, I see to be my solipsism.

9

what grips were those? Why aren’t they there anymore?

10

Like Woody Allen said, “I don’t mind the thought of dying; I just don’t want to be there when it happens.”

11

Jackelope, I really liked your post. It reminded me of Pablo Neruda’s poem La Muerta.

Si de pronto no existes, If suddenly you do not exist,
si de pronto no vives, if suddenly you no longer live,
yo seguiré viviendo. I shall live on.

12

One thing to bear in mind is that even atheists live on after death. They do so in the lives of people that they have touched and influenced during their lives, and in those people’s memories. If you have children then they carry not only your memory but your genes as well. So this is passed along. What I am now I am because others came before me. So shall others come after me to continue on.

Thus the important question is what legacy shall you leave?

13

I’m a firm believer in “dead is dead”. And I don’t think there’s any “big purpose” in life. But what you do with the time you’re here CAN be many, many meaningful things. Or it can be nothing.

We’re taught from a very young age that everything has to have some sort of meaning. Your education dictates what job you’ll have or what kind of person you’ll marry. But there are some people who live perfectly happy lives with no ambition beyond coming up with a meal every day.

It’s all in your interpretation. If you can frame it up in your mind as just a piece of what “IS”, maybe it won’t seem so dreadful.

14

I agree that our minds are searching for a sense of meaning, but that it’s a man made value and therefore, not necessarily identifiable or reachable. I seriously doubt I’ll ever be struck in the head someday by some magical answer that explains my existance along with everyone else’s.

Instead, as mentioned, lagacy is what’s important to me. You can be an athiest or a Christian and still believe in Mother Nature. What I see her doing is rewarding the transfer of seed and/or knowledge of how to successfully survive and thrive.

If you can help others, whether it be your own kids or just life’s acquaintances, to navigate through and enjoy life’s challenges, then your time here was well spent.

15

I also believe that dead=dead. I do not fear it (post-existence) any more than I fear pre-existence. To do so would be a little silly.

As to meaning, I do not see a reason for a ‘higher’ meaning, outside of that I create and seek - happiness. My genes will not be broadcast into the future, so I leave no genetic legacy, perhaps I may leave a shortlived intellectual or emotional one.
But I do not actively seek to do so.
I do not agree that a atheistic outlook necessarily leads to nihilism. I think that one can seek meaning each and every day in terms of their own happiness, and that of those one cares for. That, for me anyway, is enough.

16

mm, I, too, am an Atheist in the literal sens of the word:
A-theos, No-god.
I do not believe in a god, but I am a spiritual being, meaning that I do believe that there is a reason why we are here (I’ve my own personal life phylosophy, which works for me, but I won’t go into it here.)
I do believe in continuity on an higher level, though, but to answer your question:

“just the principle that continuity of consciousness seems to be necessary for life to have meaning. If the mind ends, then continuity ends, then meaning ends which creates a dichotomy (i love using complex sentences when i’m drunk) between meaning & meaninglessness.”

You might as well have asked the meaning of life, which in a sense this question is.
From the beginning of awareness, I suppose people have been bugged about this. You do not develop abstract thinking and then reject it because you don’t need it.
Early men, I suppose, saw the difference between animals and themselves in that way that animals seem to have a defined role in nature. They are all part of the food chain, and keep the ecological equilibrium just that. Homo Sapiens’ role is not that simply explained, therefor people have from early on assumed, or tried to explain their own existence with adding a “hidden” meaning to their lives. It is hard to accept that our lives are meaningless, but that is the human sense of superiority, I reckon.
We’re just too goddamn arrogant to be able to think otherwise.

hope this helps?

17

jackelope,

That’s really similar to this story that one of my profs once told. I guess at some point, maybe in the classical world, or maybe more recently, I don’t remember, a popular thesis students would have to write on was: “discus the meaning of the sentence ‘Caesar is dead.’”

The point being can Caesar really be dead? Caesar was, but is there now a Caesar in the state of deadness?
Anyway, re: the OP:

So what if life has no value? I can still enjoy it, can I not? I can also still try to ensure that others will enjoy it.

18

There have been a few people post on this one who make note of an essential meaninglessness to life (is that a word or did I make it up?).

I disagree, despite my concurrence with the OP on the finality of death, as to any essential lack of meaning to our lives. Life, I think, must be looked at contextually. In other words, if we seek ‘higher meaning’ we look outside the boundary conditions of life itself. One can only seek meaning in terms of life.

19

A survival instinct ingrained into the deep recesses of our brain requires us to consider the post-death condition. If we considered it and came to the logical conclusion, we’d just say “what’s the point” and up and off ourselves. To keep the species alive and well, our brain randomly fires the “what if” synapsis whenever the condition is pondered.

Just as with everything, some people have overdeveloped “what if” synapsis, and turn to forms of fanatacism and zealotry. Some have underdeveloped synapsis and don’t really give a rat’s ass about anything. The brain of each of these types also manages to see these views as common sense, which explains why neither side is able to fathom just what the hell the other side could possibly be thinking.

Or at least, that’s what I think. But what do I know? Knowing isn’t really a condition, it’s just a matter of various synapsis firing in a certain order.

20

For the purposes of conversation I’m an athiest (more agnostic). Leaving a legacy isn’t really much of a consolation because eventually it’ll be diluted as generations pass. I still, naturally, would like to leave some type of legacy or lasting memory to my family.
Even if my genes propogate through time, whats the best that can happen? Eventually the sun will burn out but not beofre turning into a red giant and swallowing the earth, a meteor will crash into the planet, an ice age will occur, world wide floods will ensue, the poles will suddenly shift…something, in the end messes up that fantasy.

Despite all of that, I’m generally a happy person because that gives me the freedom to live my life without any stigma attached to it. In the end, it’s all the same so go do with your life what you wish.