Yeah, I think that was the point addressed to ZPGZ.
Not that this is a big sample size but taking this thread alone makes parents look like assholes compared to the childless.
It was certainly hyperbole because of course parents are no better or worse compared to a random population sample as human beings, but be careful not to overstate your case. You had a great childhood, you are a great parent, those things shape your view of what parents are just as much as ZPG Zealot’s.
It absolutely can be transformative, for better or for worse. My mother had parenthood forced upon her at the age of 19, and she resented the hell out of me for it. That woman was not meant to be a parent. I had plenty of other friends with shit parents, many of whom actually chose to become parents; it’s just not really helpful to generalize either way.
Then there’s people like me, who are super fucking excited to be parents and keep meeting hurdles everywhere we look to realize our goals. And everybody tells us, ‘‘You’d be such great parents’’ because we’re already emotionally complete and, we’re just sitting here, like, no shit. Any time now.
ETA: And yes, pool, I did get a kitten to fill the void, because conservatively speaking it’s probably going to take another 2-3 years to save the required money and complete the adoption process. No, it’s not the same. But for many people that’s all they want and require and it doesn’t make them ‘‘less than.’’ My Aunt lives vicariously through her dogs and has no desire to have children because she effectively already raised one (me.)
As an aside, how do you manage to be so consistently reasonable, thoughtful, and insightful in every thread you participate in?
I know some people who deeply regret becoming parents. One was sort of pressured by his wife into having kids, and he abandoned them after telling quite a few people they had totally ruined his life. One, a woman, a good friend, told me she had two kids while young “because that is what you do” without thinking much about it, and she has several times told me that if she could drop them off at a shelter somewhere she would. I doubt she is a good parent. Both kids are poorly behaved and she pays little attention to them, not to the point where I’m calling the cops, but it’s not good.
Having children does not “complete” your life nor does it affect your emotions or maturity in any way. An astonishing number of children are born simply because of birth control failures, which suggests many of the parents out there are parents solely because they aren’t very careful.
Agreed. And I know you had a rough upbringing. At that, I really hope you will be a mother someday soon. I know you’ll be great at it, with a very happy child to boot.
But ZPG is throwing the baby out with the bathwater… so to speak. 
I missed by edit window, but that is to say, from a very young age, I knew I really wanted to have kids. And I did. I did not set out to be a complete sadist like ZPG asserts. And I don’t believe my children (one now an adult and one still an adolescent) would peg me as one.
Put me on the list of guys with bad parents. My paw slugged me, quite a lot. Physical violence is a shit-poor form of fatherhood.
I knew, with absolute certainty, from the time I was nine, that, were I to become a father, I would also be an abuser. The lessons had been engraved into my flesh. So…I chose not.
Those aren’t the same as having a child. Travel is great, but you’re still you (because no matter where you go, there you are!). Similarly, college gives you a lot of great experiences and falling in love and losing your virginity also feel awesome and are important milestones. But they don’t really compare to having a child.
And I don’t mean it in a “children are nature’s miracle” bullshit kind of way like it’s all super awesome. Because it’s not. But having a child transforms you in a way those other things don’t in that you are now responsible for another person, pretty much forever (or at least 18 years). That is now the irrevocable lens that you have to view the world and every aspect of your life with. You can always travel, go to college, fall in love, and go right back to however you were before without really affecting anyone. But if you think you can do that once you have a child, well, just ask ZPG Zealot.
No. But if you choose to have the child, you either do your damn best to be a good father or you resign yourself to the fact that you can no longer pretend to not be a piece of shit.
You might be surprised (if you were to have a child). One of the things that terrified me about having kids was the fact that I do like my freedom and solitude. But now that I have one, it’s hard not to be fascinated and excited by all the stupid funny little things they do because everything is new to them.
I don’t mean to demean or belittle what you’re saying here. But do you know yourself to be a violent person? If you don’t or haven’t abused any other loved ones in your life, what makes you think you’d abuse any children you might have?
Sorry, but that makes me feel like puking. People who go around claiming that “having a child is so different” are so out of touch with reality. It doesn’t change people.
Do you have kids?
I honestly, and without exaggeration, would give my life 100x over for my kids. Not sure I could say the same for my dog, or a trip to Venice.
Alas, I have evidence of anger and violence in my make-up. I’m pretty sure I’d be a wife-hitter, too.
(I give great thanks that for most of my life I have not been in a position to be a bully…because a very few times, when I was, I was.)
Some people are made to be great parents. Bless 'em, and I wish them the best of it. (Otherwise, the human adventure comes to a halt pretty quickly!)
Having kids does, most definitely, change people, at least in a great many cases.
To begin with…they stop having fun with their friends: all their effort is into having fun with their spouse and kids.
This isn’t a bad thing! It’s very natural, and makes perfect sense. People who have kids live far more of their lives for their kids, and less for other segments of society. Kids are extremely needy, and must have large amounts of attention. That, in itself, changes people very dramatically.
Fair enough, and I applaud you for you honesty here and perhaps your foresight, or at least, your prudence on mitigating such things in your relationships.
I’ll explain my train of thought when I typed that post, and then even if you still disagree with me, maybe you’ll at least understand that in my mind there was an underlying logic or thought process. Would you say that a person that never experienced real romantic love, like a deep powerful infatuation in the beginning that lead to a many years long true, mature, adult love was emotionally incomplete or stunted to use that word again in some way?
Because I think romantic love is similar to but not as strong as parental love. If you have experienced romantic love, I think you have experienced an increased amount of empathy and understanding of the human condition and I think not just for that one person but for others outside that relationship as well, and with parental love I think it is greater still, at least it was for me personally. And just like with parental love, the ability to experience true romantic love requires you to pay a price in that for gaining the ability to experience those emotions and feelings you have also opened yourself up to the possibility of pain and emotional trauma or sorrow.
So in my mind its the same thing some people never fall in love or experience those things and I think whether due to choice to not be put in that situation or through no choice of their own, I think they are less mature and emotionally complete than those who have experienced it. I don’t really mean that they are lesser than I am in the sense that I am superior to them, like a better person, just that I’ve done things and felt things that they can’t really understand without having gone through it and I can tell the difference between the person I was before, and the person I am now.
That’s the kind of comment that childfree/childless by choice people often get - oh, you say you don’t want a child because you’re afraid, but you might change your mind if you have one…
Certainly there are people who thought they didn’t want a child and changed their minds later, but it’s just as valid not to want one and never become a parent. Why does there always have to be that second guessing, that “oh, you just think you don’t want one” stuff?
I’m sure that most parents love their kids and want to raise them to become well adjusted, functional adults. I’m sure they do worry about their children’s safety, even after they become adults, and dread the mere thought of their children being injured/ill or even dying. I certainly believe that changes one’s life in a way that can never be undone and you can’t go back to being the person you were before.
But I’m still not sure how that makes someone a better person, more empathic, etc., or does anything out of the ordinary, frankly. Certainly raising children to become functional adults is better for society than not, but certainly childless/childfree people can find other ways to contribute to society.
Plus, taking good care of your children is not just a selfless endeavor. It benefits the parent to raise kids who will grow up and have their own kids, thus carrying on the line.
It certainly does. At least for the parents that stick around.
Parenting is HARD. It doesn’t come with a manual. And it takes a ton of patience, not only with yourself, but with them.
But your kids… goddamn, your kids surprise you in ways that simply cannot be a part of the human experience until you go through them yourselves.
It’s hardly all sunshine and rainbows. In fact, it’s mostly frustrating and a lesson in patience. But there are moments of profound insight and recognition that you just can’t get from anything else.
Speaking of, the first time I saw my daughter, the very first thought that went through my head was “She looks familiar.” It was such a simple, honest thought at the time, but such a profound moment when thinking back on it. Especially now that she looks more like me than her mother. However, did I know what I was in for in raising a human being over the next 18 years? Fuck no! Most of it’s been so hard and frustrating (as said), but the experience shapes you. They become adult humans too, and you begin to share with them and soon enough… learn from them. That makes it worth, well fuck… everything.
You cynics can go ahead and puke now.
She’s right again, folks.
I’ve never been one to push or suggest everybody have children. If you don’t want any, don’t.
But at the same time, you have to admit it’s one of the ultimate experiences of being human. Like solving a problem that mattered to you. Like fucking. Like falling in love.
Having kids is part of this. It’s not for everybody, but there is no arguing it’s hardwired into our genetics. For myself, it all worked out more than I could’ve imagined. Everybody has to deal with this on their own terms, and maybe to a lot, it’s not much of a decision. :shrug: You’ll never know what you’re missing, but at the same time, you can’t care about what you’ve missed, since you’ve never known it.