Exactly that’s why David whatshisname was arrested in Austria after many years of being a mentalist in the United Kingdom.
I’m convinced.
Agreed. I’m not about to go out and spend my hard-earned money on books that are full of crap. If you want to make an argument, then make an argument.
I suppose this is an unnecessary emotional appeal, but my grandfather was one of the first U.S. soldiers to see Auschwitz, I’m told. He was also Jewish. He didn’t talk about it much, and never to me, but the notion he was either fooled or lying is more than a little objectionable. I’m left to imagine how he would’ve objected to it.
Have you ever read any books by Miklos Nyiszli? If not, you need to. He was a doctor who lived in the same quarters as the Sonderkommandos who took the dead bodies from the gas chambers to the crematorium for the burning of the bodies.
He had special privileges (because he was an MD who helped with the medical experiments) and was able to smuggle a camera into Auschwitz and the photographs survived the liberation of the camp. Several pictures show the sonderkommandos dragging dead bodies from the gas chamber into the crematoria. If you are truly a Holocaust scholar, then I am sure you know which photos I refer to. How could that be faked? (and why?)
You do realize that pointing to an article by an American Catholic talking about famine and disease in the immediate aftermath of WWI hardly provides support for a claim that the Jews were plotting to announce a fictitious genocide.
At any rate,
I am pretty sure that Professor Bauer’s comment is taken out of context and I suspect that he meant that Müller is the only person who was a witness to the events from the beginning to the end, not that he was the only witness.
Certainly, nothing has made Profeesor Bauer change his opinion that the holocaust was a genuine event, so I am not sure why we should accept your word.
Allan Gurfinkle, you will note the the Forum is called Great Debates, not Great Cut-and-Paste Links. If you continue to simply post links to other sites without providing any serious discussion in your own words, I will shut down this nonsense. I’m willing to tolerate even an outrageous claim of nonsense, but I see no reason to tolerate someone shilling for other web sitres.
[ /Moderating ]
I don’t think I’ve ever seen another message board where such an OP would receive such a (mostly) civil response.
But, is there any point in even responding? I believe in the mission of the Straight Dope, but we’ll never get through to somebody like our guest. “Fighting Ignorance” is what he believes he’s doing here.
Allan, to hold the beliefs you do requires not just ignorance of the facts, but willful ignorance. You’ve put a lot of work into disregarding mountains of evidence in order to believe in something that a few moments’ rational thought would tell you is virtually impossible.
I’m curious (and we’re a curious bunch here) – what first led you to believe what you do?
And why do you choose to believe the ranti…er…writings of THIS particular writer and the few who agree with him over the extensive volumes of memoirs, historical records, films, interviews, and other evidence to the contrary? What makes this stand out as truth for you? Is it simply a matter of “they hate jews and so do I so I’ll believe them!”? What about all the people who hate jews and still believe the holocaust happened (like, um…the Nazis, for instance). Are they all just stupid jew haters, where you’re one of a handful of brilliant jew haters?
Are you sure about Ireland? They have one of the most astounding ‘hate speech’ laws imaginable, that could be used to suppress anything … so if the govt. is allowing holocaust denial it is not for lack of a law … let’s google … here’s a snippet … of Ireland’s Incitement to Hatred Act
A person shall be guilty of an offence under this Act if, with intent to stir up hatred against, or arouse fear of, any section of the public in Northern Ireland- Incitement to hatred.
(a) he publishes or distributes written or other matter which is threatening, abusive or insulting; or
(b) he uses in any public place or at any public meeting words which are threatening, abusive or insulting;
being matter or words likely to stir up hatred against, or arouse fear of, any section of the public in Northern Ireland on grounds of religious belief, colour, race or ethnic or national origins.
More …
The act …
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0019/index.html
Based on the above, I refer to Ireland as the ADLs most successful effort, am I wrong?
I have family members who died in the Holocaust and others who are survivors. I have firends and aquaintences who are Holocaust surviors. I have known soldiers, both American and Russian, who were involved in liberating the camps. I even knew a man who was a guard at Treblinka. All of them tell the same history and all of it contradicts you. Who do you think I will believe?
Or are they ALL part of the big Zionist consipracy?
and amazingly the ADL has never tried to stop us discussing it!
Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the Jews as people? If, answering honestly, you can say that you don’t really like them, have you considered the possibility that your argument is tinged with a bit of confirmation bias?
You’re showing us sources where literally 100% of the content is devoted to carefully detailing exactly how much the Jews suck. The only people participating in discussions on those boards are convinced there’s a worldwide Jewish conspiracy to control the media and perpetrate a massive victimization hoax. You’re telling us things that are flat out untrue, like “eyewitness accounts are surprisingly rare”. You’re avoiding answering real questions like WHY everyone who knew better would cooperate in the hoax, WHO started the hoax, WHERE all the Jews that were in Europe before the war ended up, HOW can such a big hoax be maintained in an age where we take a scientific and skeptical view of history? The only actual facts you have provided do not support your argument at all, such as “they didn’t put bars on the windows to the gas chambers.” Is that really an argument a non-biased person would use to deny that the sudden disappearance of six million people over the course of a few years was genocide?
Do you understand what you’re asking us to believe here? There is no such thing as a worldwide conspiracy. The only sources for your argument are people with political or personal motivations for making it. The governments of the world are NOT in collusion to suppress the “truth” about a fake genocide. Just listen to yourself for a minute here.
The thread is interesting, because many of the death camps are literally falling apart. If not preserved, they will be ruins in 20-30 years. plus, the Russians used them after the nazis, and made many modifications to them.
I’d say these revisionists will be able to get away with a LOT of false information, once the camps are gone. Face it, >10 miilon people (Jews, political prisoners, gypsies, poles, and others) disappeared (in the period 1939-1945)-and they just didn’t all go poof!
I have the book. I quoted the first sentence verbatim of Bauer’s introduction.
I read the links in the OP. In no way does this constitute ‘proof’.
First, you only address a few little things. Of all the evidence that’s been found in support of the Holocaust, you’re nitpicking a few things and then declaring victory. I too have read many many first hand accounts, and haven even talked to someone who witnessed the events. The only argument against this I’ve seen is ‘oh there’s not as many as you think’, when, in fact, there is.
Second, the things you nitpick aren’t picked very well. The first site is just an article, written without cites or sources, that appears to include several mined quotes. It’s not convincing. The sites with pictures of doors say things like ‘appears to be’ and ‘looks like’, without any veracity. The one picture says ‘look, theres no door at all, lols’, when it’s obvious to any rational being that the area is either old and worn, or has sustained some kind of damage. Either way, it looks like there is clearly something missing from the oddly deep doorway. Another picture says ‘look, its a window’. And yup, there’s a window. A single small window very high up on the wall. And that shows what exactly? It doesn’t look like it was built for light, or access. It looks a lot more like it was built so that it was inaccessible. The last link is a bunch of pictures, with no cites or identification. No verification at all.
And lastly, you repeatedly invoke the ‘its a conspiracy!’ assertion when confronted with evidence or logic opposing your view. Multiple governments have kept all these things a secret for how long, and to what end, benefiting who? It just doesn’t fit the empirical evidence.
All you have achieved is the opposite of your intent: I am now more certain than ever that not only the Holocaust existed, but that Holocaust Deniers are loons.
You’re referring to Northern Ireland, which is a different country than Ireland.
[hijack]
“Holocaust,” BTW, is an ancient Greek work for a religious sacrifice in which the entire animal is burned. In an ordinary sacrifice, the priests would offer the gods only some sinews and bones wrapped in fat; the meat would be cooked and the priests, the worshipper offering sacrifice, and anyone passing by would get to eat it. Meat was very expensive in ancient times, and you would only celebrate a holocaust if you were very rich and either thanking or petitioning the gods for something really, really important. I recall a story that one Greek mathematician offered a holocaust of 100 bulls after devising a proof that the square root of two is not a rational number.
[/hijack]
Wow, that is fascinating. I’ve read extensively about the Holocaust, mostly because it boggles my mind that humans can be capable of such evil. But one of the most poignant accounts I’ve ever heard was from a man who was 14 when Auschwitz was liberated. He described how he had been treated like garbage for so long, that he didn’t feel human anymore. He felt he had no worth. Then when the Americans arrived at the camp, he described how a young American GI came up to him with tears and horror in his eyes. He said the GI took off his coat and put it around the boy and hugged him around the shoulder, then went fishing through his pockets to find him something to eat. He said “I couldn’t believe it. Here I was this smelly disgusting animal covered in lice and filth, yet this man…this privileged man…touched me, put his arm around me like I was a real person.” It is one of those interviews I will never forget.
I’d say so yes.
Debating history, even if it is a touchy topic, is not hate speech. You are not being threatening or abusive here and the only insult is to our intelligence which I doubt meets the legal definition of an insult.
If you started saying the Holocaust did not happen but you wish it had then that’d be different.
In the immortal words of the late Brutus - “Looks like meat’s back on the menu, boys!”
Or, perhaps more appropriately -
Regards,
Shodan